to get obsessed with unfairness

[Ceci03]

so I'm tired of fighting for fairness. I asked my boss today if I could work 8am to 4pm (instead of 9am to 5pm), There are 6 of us in the team and 3 people already work 8-4, by request. I said I would only leave at 4 if there was someone in who is working til 5pm - i.e. I would be flexible and asked to just do it if there is someone there. I am often left on my own from 4pm to 5pm if I'm on the rota with the people who are working 8-4. I honestly didn't think it would be a problem. We have the use of a free car park for a few months - leftover from covid, - and I've been driving in, which is a lot quicker than public transport, and less chance of catching covid, but I do have to be in by 7.30am to get a space, so I've been wandering in, getting a coffee and starting work usually around 8.30, getting a headstart on the day, which is fine. Colleagues were saying to me I should just ask to leave at 4 as I'm in so early so today I bit the bullet and asked. And was immediately shut down. She referred me to my contract - from 2.5 years ago - which apparently says I have to work 9-5 (I checked it later and it doesnt mention this), she also said she has to put the 'business needs' of the team first, and I need to be there from 4-5. She said other things, like how I need to officially apply for flexible working. When I pointed out that in the policy it says that local managers have discretion for temporary arrangements, she said she had made her decision. I'm finding it really hard to let it go. Obsessing about why she is unfair. I need to just let it go and get over it, but I'm finding it really hard, especially as I get older, to let this kind of unfairness go. I need to though I know that. Life is unfair and that's life. It really bugs me that I take pride in my work, and even last week worked late when I got home, to meet a deadline, and had everythign ready to go on the Friday morning. no acknowledgement of that, or offer of time in lieu, or any mention of it at all. I know, I chose to do that, as I wanted to meet the deadline. But it's just hard when you ask for some flexibility in return, and it's immediately denied. WIsh I could switch off my brain now though.

Whoever told you life was fair! Whatever you might think, you are not automatically entitled to fairness in life. Most of us learn this at a young age; it is a modern phenomenon that this sort of attitude persists into adulthood. Think of those being bombed in Ukraine, is that fair? Objectively, taking a step back, life and being alive is characterized by unfairness. To be human means dealing with life's inherent unfairness sometimes. I still find it really strange when I encounter adults that don't know this

I knew some of you would agree with my manager. Just to clarify the point she made about me being needed to cover my original colleagues hours does not make sense as she did the the same hours as me 9-5. We worked together for a year before she went on maternity and then sick leave.

My question really is how do I get this woman out of my head. I want to forget the whole thing and just move on. Anyone any advice on that.

@JovialNickname I find it strange when I encounter adults who know life is unfair and think that's fine and no need for anyone to try to do anything about it. Most of us can't do much about Russia (other than stop voting for people funded by Russian oligarchs) but we can look for a better job if our current employer is taking the piss.

OP there's probably nothing you can do about this awful manager but unless you are being paid a lot of money I would suggest you start looking for other jobs and in the meantime cut right back on the extra hours. Can you take yourself for a coffee or a nice walk after you've parked?

My question really is how do I get this woman out of my head

She's your manager, you can't.

Stop being childish & have an honest, factual conversation with her about the additional work. You mentioned one time working late - was it more than that?

About working early, don't.

Changing your hours - put in a request as she said. You say it'll be declined? It may be, but there are then rules around how this can be applied so you will have a further basis to discuss.

Your manager not having kids has fuck all to do with this so no reason to mention it here - do you think that makes her inferior, or something?

You are still not getting the cover point. You provide extra resilience in the 9-5 shift which means you are also there when the other person can't be.

This thread really shows how clueless many people are about the operational requirements of services.

I'm assuming that you are customer focus and the business/service needs to run until 5pm. 3 staff on one shift means cover at all time, taking into account holidays and sickness.

Why dors everything has to be made personal and why this entitlement to your wishes taking over the needs of the service?

You agreed to work certain hours for over 2 years. You can't expect to change this just to suit you. And yes, this happened to me. I didn't like it but understood why I had to work those hours. It's life.

Just to clarify the point she made about me being needed to cover my original colleagues hours does not make sense as she did the the same hours as me 9-5
It does make complete sense. You are both covering eachother. This means if she's not there, there is still someone to work until 5. Just like if someone on the 8 to 4 shift is off sick, someone can cover the 8am start.

4 vs 2, or 1 I'd one person is off long term at the moment doesn't work.

Your manager has a job to do and part of that is ensuring their is sufficient cover until 5pm. This is not just considering how many people are contracted to do 9-5 but also what happens if someone is on leave and then someone goes sick.

From the sounds of it you are sometimes on your own from 4-5pm, so who would cover if you also left at 4pm.

You were contracted to work 9-5 and agreed to this. It is not your managers fault there are temporary car parking arrangements, nor is it your fault.

You have been advised to make a formal request for flexible working, which is correct, even for short term ad hoc arrangements. Part of the process is for the applicant, you, to think through how your request can be met and what the impact of your request is on the business. In doing this you may be able to suggest solutions to the staffing issue your manger is trying to manage.

Honestly, if the saving money on your parking in the primary motivating factor and you won’t want to keep up 8-4 once the free parking has ended, then you either sit in your car and read a book or listen to a podcast etc until just before 9, or if you think you’ll manage to do it, go into your office and do the same. Don’t start working until 9am and finish at 5 on the dot.

I’ve had managers like this before, put in a flexible working request if you’d like her to consider it permanently, appeal if it’s denied etc, but stop thinking that this is about you. It really isn’t about you, you just have a shit manager who is poor at communicating.

@user1471457751

Your manager not having kids has fuck all to do with this so no reason to mention it here - do you think that makes her inferior, or something?

You are still not getting the cover point. You provide extra resilience in the 9-5 shift which means you are also there when the other person can't be.

Actually I have found that female managers who haven't got children can be incredibly obtuse to the challenges working mothers face. Not all of course and not as a rule but I have personally encountered childfree female managers in their 40s and 50s who are tough as nails and have not a supportive bone in their body because they simply cannot understand the level of juggling involved in working full time in a demand job and managing kids.

This sort of attitude by managers is the reason that employees become resentful and do the bare minimum. Stop working unpaid overtime, do exactly your contacted hours and no more. Even if you arrive early, have a coffee, read a book but do not start work until 9am. I'd also start looking for another job where you are actually appreciated.

I dont think it's unusual that all flexible working requests have to be put in writing.

It's certainly the case in the team I manage, as it gives an audit trail and is hr compliant so if requests are denied etc there has to be a proper reason. When it's informal you get conversations like the above where people assume its some sort of discrimination. It also gives us review periods etc

We do have some ability to grant it without using the form but I'd only be using that in a complete emergency temporary eg. A childcare setting closed cos of covid for 2 weeks, elderly parent suddenly needs care and is awaiting care package

When you grant things informally you end up with exactly what's happened here, where everybody assumes that they should also be able to change hours.
Presumably the 8-4 requests were granted based on the idea that the 9-5 slots have sufficient cover. If everybody suddenly decided to complain like you have then there's a chance the whole team thinks it's unfair that they can't go home at 4, because they came in early (when it's not been requested of them, they've come in early because it suits them)

Presumably no one asked you to come in at 8 though?

It depends on the buisness for me, anything customer facing or where you are running a service till 5 then I think its completely reasonable to ask people to work their contracted hours even if they chose to come in early

Sounds like you are the doormat of the group. Stick to doing the bare minimum required and do not work outside of the hours they say you should be working. Plenty of brew breaks too.

I think she could have handled it better by taking some time to think about it and having a proper, considered conversation.

But if there are six on the team and three of them do 8-4, then I feel it is a valid management decision to want the other three members to work 9-5.

You say you are often on your own 4-5 so what happens if you also go home at 4?

I know you have said that 'other people have offered to cover' and 'I wouldn't go home if it meant leaving the office empty' but that seems like a very casual arrangement that could easily fall apart - sickness, absence or just the day you need to leave at 4 because you've made plans.

She has suggested you put in a request for proper consideration so you should do that, so that you can at least hear the proper reasons behind a no decision.

Personally, since it is just a temporary request so you can use the free car park, I wouldn't be too worked up about it. They put the business first because if the business suffers, jobs are at risk. Look elsewhere if you can't get over it.

I'm afraid I don't think that she's being unreasonable. You don't need to start early, that is your choice. In terms of leaving early you need some cover until 5, you say that you're often the only one who is there until 5 and therefore you changing your hours potentially leaves no cover. An informal arrangement that you will stay late ad hoc isn't helpful in running a business. I think you're taking it far more personally than you need to.

Did the people working 8-4 have to submit working requests, were their hours agreed on hire or did they get it informally?

@Allaboutthatvase

I dont think it's unusual that all flexible working requests have to be put in writing.

It's certainly the case in the team I manage, as it gives an audit trail and is hr compliant so if requests are denied etc there has to be a proper reason. When it's informal you get conversations like the above where people assume its some sort of discrimination. It also gives us review periods etc

We do have some ability to grant it without using the form but I'd only be using that in a complete emergency temporary eg. A childcare setting closed cos of covid for 2 weeks, elderly parent suddenly needs care and is awaiting care package

When you grant things informally you end up with exactly what's happened here, where everybody assumes that they should also be able to change hours.
Presumably the 8-4 requests were granted based on the idea that the 9-5 slots have sufficient cover. If everybody suddenly decided to complain like you have then there's a chance the whole team thinks it's unfair that they can't go home at 4, because they came in early (when it's not been requested of them, they've come in early because it suits them)

Just for information, I did put it in writing, in an email, I'm following the policy as laid out by the organisation.

I'm just asking for a small bit of flexibility. Perhaps I have not been clear, we are working on a rota system, so some people work from home, some people come in. I have said if I am on the rota with people who already have permission to leave at 4pm, I will stay until 5, so as not to impact them. However, if I am on with 1 or 2 (sometimes 3 people are in, sometimes 2), who start at 9 and leave at 5, it would not impact anyone for me to leave at 4. The manager would not even be in on these days as when she is in she leaves at 4, therefore I would stay until 5.

Anyway, there will always be unfairness and pettiness from managers, which is a shame, as the way they get a good job done is by respecting trusting and motivating their staff, not by constantly nit picking and being inflexible. She expects me to be flexible and come in at 8am for meetings, or be availalbe for meetings on Teams, outside the 9-5 , but when I ask for just a small concession, she immediately starts quoting back to me my contractural obligations. The flexibility only goes one way. She has never offered me time off in lieu, or even acknowledged my flexibility ( I have no problem being flexible, I want to do a good job, I do it willingly and with good grace), but then this kind of thing feels like a slap in the face.
Anyway, I'm going to try and forget her now. She is taking up way too much space in my brain, and does not deserve it!

@Avocadobacardi

I'm afraid I don't think that she's being unreasonable. You don't need to start early, that is your choice. In terms of leaving early you need some cover until 5, you say that you're often the only one who is there until 5 and therefore you changing your hours potentially leaves no cover. An informal arrangement that you will stay late ad hoc isn't helpful in running a business. I think you're taking it far more personally than you need to.

The reason I brought that up is that one of her 'excuses' is that there needs to be more than 1 person there from 4-5. This is a new "rule" as I am often there on my own, as I am on the rota with the people who all leave t 4, and that has never been a problem up until now.

@Allaboutthatvase

Did the people working 8-4 have to submit working requests, were their hours agreed on hire or did they get it informally?

I don't know, they have been there longer than me, so it may have even been agreed with the manager there before her. She started a year before me, and those people I think were already in post. For one of them, we were working solely from home when she was appointed, and she asked to work 8-4, and manager agreed at the time, as we were not in the office, but now has to stick to her word, even though we are back in the office, and she would prefer her to be 9-5.

ugh that sounds dire and screams favouritism to me @Ceci03, is this a civil service job?

not exactly @LetPan, but you're on the right track.

I actually have an interview on Tuesday and I'm praying and hoping that I get the job as I've really had enough. Have decided I'm leaving as soon as I can get a job, will just have to tough it out til then. I can't work like this, it's horrible.

The reason I brought that up is that one of her 'excuses' is that there needs to be more than 1 person there from 4-5. This is a new "rule" as I am often there on my own, as I am on the rota with the people who all leave t 4, and that has never been a problem up until now

they [those working 8-4] have been there longer than me, so it may have even been agreed with the manager there before her. She started a year before me, and those people I think were already in post.

You’re on the rota with someone who works 8-4 and want to move to the same hours, even though 4-5 has to be covered?

Those on 8-4 were on those hours before you started and you’ve said you were hired specifically to cover 9-5.

But you are complaining it’s “unfair” they have 8-4 and you don’t?

Nothing you’ve said here makes it sound like your manager is doing anything other than considering business needs. How is any of this “unfair”?

I get it’s not working for you, but it’s not “unfair” or unreasonable of the manager to refuse your request.

@NumberTheory

The reason I brought that up is that one of her 'excuses' is that there needs to be more than 1 person there from 4-5. This is a new "rule" as I am often there on my own, as I am on the rota with the people who all leave t 4, and that has never been a problem up until now

they [those working 8-4] have been there longer than me, so it may have even been agreed with the manager there before her. She started a year before me, and those people I think were already in post.

You’re on the rota with someone who works 8-4 and want to move to the same hours, even though 4-5 has to be covered?

Those on 8-4 were on those hours before you started and you’ve said you were hired specifically to cover 9-5.

But you are complaining it’s “unfair” they have 8-4 and you don’t?

Nothing you’ve said here makes it sound like your manager is doing anything other than considering business needs. How is any of this “unfair”?

I get it’s not working for you, but it’s not “unfair” or unreasonable of the manager to refuse your request.

@NumberTheory no sorry you have misunderstood

Up until today, it has been perfectly acceptable to the manager to have ONLY me there from 4pm to 5pm, if I happen to be the only person working 9-5 that day.

So in my proposal, I said that if I was on the rota with a person who is also working 9-5, if I work 8-4, then that person will be on their own from 4pm to 5pm, but that won't be a problem, as it happens to me all the time.

Now she is saying that that is not possible - that 2 people need to be there from 4pm-5pm, but only on the days when I could leave at 4. I.e. it's still ok if she is leaving at 4pm and the other person is leaving at 4pm, and I'm there on my own. But if I'm on the rota and one person is leaving at 4pm, and one person is leaving at 5pm, I need to STAY WITH the person 4pm-5pm as 2 people need to be there.

This is a new rule or excuse, and only seems to apply on days when it would be actually possible for me to leave at 4pm as the office would be covered.