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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do you still celebrate your Irish roots, even if you're not Irish

231 replies

Stressedout65 · 17/03/2022 22:59

One of my paternal great grandfathers was Irish & I had an Irish surname until I got married. I even have a piece of clothing made from the Irish family tartan with the family name coat of arms emblazoned on it. I wanted to wear it to work today as we had the option of dressing for St Patricks Day (in England). I chickened out as it felt false & attention seeking. An Irish colleague said I should have worn it if I wanted to as it's part of my Irish roots & heritage. I feel my Irish roots are now so diluted it didn't feel right. How far back do you celebrate your roots & heritage if they're different to what you actually are now?
I do feel drawn to Ireland, it's culture & music. I don't know if this "connection" I feel is exaggerated because I lost my dad a year ago

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 18/03/2022 12:12

No worries then about if you were Irish enough.

Exactly

TerribleCustomerCervix · 18/03/2022 12:16

@TheKeatingFive

But as an Irish person still living here, it gives me the ick seeing people with tenuous links putting on a green top from the back of the wardrobe and instagramming a picture of a pint of Guinness to celebrate their Irishness.

As an Irish person I think this a bit short sighted. We've benefitted hugely from other countries good will towards us when times were tough. I do not see what is to be gained by begrudging people a selfie on paddy's day.

That’s up to you, but similarly I don’t like seeing irishness diluted to being a drunk and wearing green.
TheKeatingFive · 18/03/2022 12:17

It's also worth noting that successive Irish governments since the 50s/60s have very deliberately encouraged Irish American sentiment, investment and spending in Ireland. The paddy's day selfies are evidence of people playing along with that so I wouldn't knock it.

TheKeatingFive · 18/03/2022 12:18

but similarly I don’t like seeing irishness diluted to being a drunk and wearing green.

That's your interpretation. Again, seems awfully churlish to me.

TortugaRumCakeQueen · 18/03/2022 12:18

I think how connected you feel to your roots, depends on your upbringing. I have 2 children (who are now in their 20's), with my 1st husband (P). P was born in England, but his parents (so my children's GP's on that side), were born in Ireland - they both came over to England when they were children, in the late 1950's, and have lived here ever since. Despite this, they don't identify as even remotely English, and call themselves and their children and even their grandchildren "Irish". They live in an Irish community, only mix with Irish people (go to Irish Centres and Clubs) and are strict Catholics. P and his siblings all went to Catholic schools. P's parents said that if we didn't have a Catholic wedding, that they would not come. P wanted to give our children Irish names, but I refused, however, all of P's siblings have given their children very Irish names - the kind that no one in England would know how to spell. As soon as my children were born they were given Irish things to wear. At any sports match, the whole family wear Irish tops and cheer for Ireland. The whole family go to Ireland a lot - it's the only place the GP will go on holiday. As a consequence, even though my children are English - as are both parents, they identify as Irish, because of the constant reminder of Ireland.

debwong · 18/03/2022 12:22

How come there are no English-Americans or Welsh-Americans?

brokengoalposts · 18/03/2022 12:23

@TerribleCustomerCervix I don't associate being Irish with alcohol and green, just with St Patrick's Day. We all know being Irish is very different, but as this was posted on 17th March, we have associated the thread with it.

TheKeatingFive · 18/03/2022 12:24

How come there are no English-Americans or Welsh-Americans?

There are. They just aren't as numerous, cohesive and engaged as the Irish American contingent.

SenecaFallsRedux · 18/03/2022 12:29

@debwong

How come there are no English-Americans or Welsh-Americans?
There are. But often the term in the US is Anglo-American.
RockinHorseShit · 18/03/2022 12:35

I sort of nod to it, but not actually celebrating per se. I have an Irish grandad & maiden name like you & a lot of Irish friends who always dragged me not exactly kicking & screaming along to big celebrations in the past, but via SM video call, this year I shared a "special Guinness shit" (Tia Maria & a baileys to) or 2 with my good friend who was out celebrating in Dublin

RockinHorseShit · 18/03/2022 12:36

Shot!!

Though I expect there's plenty suffering with special Guinness shits today Grin

DownNative · 18/03/2022 12:42

@TheKeatingFive

How come there are no English-Americans or Welsh-Americans?

There are. They just aren't as numerous, cohesive and engaged as the Irish American contingent.

Actually, Anglo-Americans have been a bigger group than Irish-Americans, but they usually self-identify as American these days.

In 2017, 21,227,906 identified as American.

In 1980, 40 million US citizens identified as Irish-American, but today this figure stands at 30 million. And it's only going to drop even more as the years go by.

American will, in contrast, grow and grow.

debwong · 18/03/2022 12:49

@DownNative Interesting, thanks.

DownNative · 18/03/2022 12:49

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

My dh had a GM who was born in what is now Ireland (not N Ireland) but moved when still quite young to England. On that basis he acquired an Irish passport after Brexit.

While he likes his Irish roots, I doubt he’s even aware of St. P’s day, though. I like to wind him up 😈 by saying that his GM wasn’t ‘proper’ Irish - the family was Protestant, way-back immigrants from Scotland.

You might be winding your husband up, but that is how the idea of Protestants as the "resident alien" continues.

It's that kind of othering of them that helped create the murderous strain of Irish Republicanism from the early 20th century onwards.

Protestants also have some degree of Catholic ancestry and vice versa. My family tree has mostly Ulster Catholics with some Ulster Protestants in it.

It also adds to the othering of the Catholic Unionists even now. Today, there's about 90,000 Catholics in Northern Ireland who identify as British only. The number rises to over 100,000 when we include the other combinations of identity.

In short, many forms of othering begin as 'jokes'.

2Gen · 18/03/2022 12:53

I'm the daughter of Irish emigrants to England and have lived in Ireland for 15 years now, and am married to a born, bred and buttered Irishman! We were both thrown down like 2 sacks of spuds yesterday so weren't able to celebrate but we did hear Mass online because St. Patrick's Day is a Holy Day , and that's how I was reared. My parents were very devout and I'm a revert , so Mass is the most important part of St. Patrick's day for me anyway!
OP, if you feel drawn to Ireland then that's grand! Come and visit as soon as you can and if you decide to move here, that's grand too but do do your homework. Ireland may not seem that different on the surface but it is! It really is a foreign country and they do things differently here. Also, just to warn you that you will always be thought of as English by the indigenous Irish, but if you accept that and try to integrate discreetly, and always remember to be able to laugh at yourself, you'll be alright. You may get called a "Plastic Paddy" but just laugh! Irish people don't like it when people take themselves too seriously at all! If you have young children, they'll integrate easily I would think. My son is English-born and English on his father's side but he is pretty much Gaelicised now as he's lived here since he was 7! He has loads of mates and a small group of very close friends who he's known since we first came and he started going to school here. All the best OP and if you want to celebrate Patrick's Day, do! Sure no one here really gives a shite about "cultural appropriation" ! Irish people are not precious nor petty! It's not a "thing" here as far as I've experienced!

BalladOfBarryAndFreda · 18/03/2022 12:53

Great grandparent is a very tenuous link.

Celebrate the day if you want but to claim links with the culture is a bit (lot) if a reach, imo.

DownNative · 18/03/2022 13:06

@limitedperiodonly

My paternal grandparents and that side of the family were Irish but I am an English citizen of Britain. I neither celebrate nor reject those facts.

I knew about Irish politics and a small bit about culture because of my father and also because I grew up in the 1970s and we visited Ireland sometimes. But I always regarded myself as English/British because that is what I am. As my mother was English/British it would have been strange for me to ignore her heritage and identify as Irish.

If people want to do that then that's okay. I suppose some people think it makes them more interesting and the English are always keen on appropriating an opportunity for a drink on someone else's holiday.

I found it odd when US citizens much further removed from me from the old country described themselves as Irish and worse that some of them gave money to the IRA at teary-eyed functions for widows and orphans. I remember my dad having an interesting conversation with an American of Irish descent who thought that was a way for them to bond.

I was a child during those 1970s bombing campaigns and not close to any targets except on school trips to places like the Tower of London. But my father, brother and sister could have been blown to bits because they worked in those target areas every day. They were innocent civilians not agents of the British state.

I took no pleasure in 9/11 but I'd be lying if I said I didn't wonder then and now whether people - particularly those in the NYPD and FDNY or politicians from presidents downwards - understand what it is to be an innocent civilian considered to be the legitimate target of people with a grievance from a foreign land.

Yes, the Irish-Americans were criticised by Bono during a concert in New York following the Enniskillen Remembrance Sunday atrocity. Quite right too.

The Irish Times had an article on Irish-Americans and their views is, quite frankly, well out of touch. Most of them thought the entire island had a massive population - one thought it was 100 million ! Hmm

The whole funding of NORAID in the US was shameful.

But it must be understood that only a section of Irish-Americans supported NORAID, Sinn Féin and the PIRA. Only a section of Irish-Americans are themselves Nationalist and/or Republican.

Most of Irish-America has no real view on the Troubles era history. And the numbers of those identifying as Irish-American is declining gradually. This has increased in speed in the post-GFA era, ironically, suggesting that Provo murder being publicised enabled many of them to take a side. They often misunderstood the nature of the conflict completely.

An American centric mentality is what they really have. Practically all the St Patrick's Day nonsense comes from the United States and not anywhere on the island of Ireland.

Another one - Guinness isn't actually Irish. Arthur Guinness brought it back from London and he'd be spinning in his grave at it being associated with St Patrick's Day as the colour green only took prominence due to the Irish independence movement from the late 19th Century onwards.

Guinness' descendants also funded the 1914 UVF, so they were Unionists against Home Rule.

2Gen · 18/03/2022 13:07

@ancientgran- And I think none of us begrudged a penny of what was sent back here either! I certainly didn't, I loved my GPs, especially my mother's mother! I still miss her to this day!

TheKeatingFive · 18/03/2022 13:17

Arthur Guinness brought it back from London and he'd be spinning in his grave at it being associated with St Patrick's Day as the colour green only took prominence due to the Irish independence movement from the late 19th Century onwards

The Guinness family and brand have leaned very heavily into their Irish associations since then, so he can take it up with his ancestors 😆

Superhanz · 18/03/2022 13:24

I'm Irish living in Ireland and I agree with your colleague Smile

crosstalk · 18/03/2022 13:30

Tartan used to be just a woven check woollen cloth in any of the natural dye - light green, ochre, beige, black (from some sheep). Mostly worn by Highlanders but would have been a material in Ireland and northern England. There was more of a family than clan pattern. The tartan as such seems to have been promoted by new chemical dyes coming in and the promotion of tartan by an English king in the early !9th century and Sir Walter Scott. Then it's been endless marketing. I don't object at all but it's a 200 year old tradition AFAIK. I wish my clan had chosen more wisely and not gone for an appalling orange.

DownNative · 18/03/2022 13:33

@TheKeatingFive

Arthur Guinness brought it back from London and he'd be spinning in his grave at it being associated with St Patrick's Day as the colour green only took prominence due to the Irish independence movement from the late 19th Century onwards

The Guinness family and brand have leaned very heavily into their Irish associations since then, so he can take it up with his ancestors 😆

Arthur Guinness being Unionist never did preclude him from being Irish, you know. Or his descendants.

Strange idea.

But it was Diageo who did all the branding we see today. They own the brand today.

There's biscuits people think is Irish but isn't. And biscuits people think is English, but is actually Irish. Its all about branding these days.

myislandhome · 18/03/2022 13:42

I am Australian with much Irish stock, (but am 5th and 6th generation aussie) and have never thought of myself as anything other than Australian. I dont know a single person who wasn't born in Ireland who calls themselves "Irish". I find it very odd.

TheKeatingFive · 18/03/2022 13:44

But it was Diageo who did all the branding we see today. They own the brand today.

No. Diageo only took over Guinness in 1997. It was well established by then.

debwong · 18/03/2022 14:24

@myislandhome

I am Australian with much Irish stock, (but am 5th and 6th generation aussie) and have never thought of myself as anything other than Australian. I dont know a single person who wasn't born in Ireland who calls themselves "Irish". I find it very odd.
That's a good point. There isn't an organised lobby of "Irish-Australians" like there are Irish-Americans, even though their migratory history is probably very similar.