To think most marriages have elements of LTB in them

[AdamRyan]

In my (finished) marriage there was quite a lot of behaviour I put up with, that would have mumsnet saying "LTB!"

Talking to friends, family there seems to be a lot of it about in their marriages too. (Not gender specific, things like financial control, secret drinking, debts, cocklodging, contempt, verbal abuse etc etc)

I think most marriages/long relationships have elements of LTB behaviour- but I don’t know if my perspective is warped.

Putting on voting to allow people to be semi anonymous, as I expect the comments to be full of very happily married types saying IABU

No one’s perfect but I think the benchmark is repeat behaviour. In your list DH once had a debt he didn’t tell me about, around 12 years ago and was once verbally aggressive to me, beginning of lockdown when he was worried about his job.
He hasn’t repeated either of those things.

He and his 2 siblings were brought up among the wreckage of a hideous marriage and then very acrimonious divorce and MIL is controlling, vindictive, hot and cold with affection and they had no privacy. FIL was forced out of the picture with classic parental alienation but he’s not some saint so their relationship has never been strong though we see him once a year or so.

So his natural tendency is to omit information which is what happened with the debt. In hindsight It wasn’t too unmanageably big, it wasn’t for a crap reason, he just never said anything about it and I was very shocked and blindsided when I found out. Communication helped. Same with his loss of temper around being at risk. I said to a friend at the time with the debt that if she told me her husband did that, I would tell her to leave him or make plans to be ready for it and I meant it but I didn’t consider it seriously myself. There is so much good stuff in our marriage but it wasn’t my focus over those couple of days.

@BennyTheWonderDog

Mumsnet is very quick to say LTB.

I think a lot of it comes down to presentation. I'm very happily married but my DH has some faults, as do I. If I posted on here purely about his faults and painted them at their worst while failing to say anything about my own faults, I could definitely get people telling me to LTB, without my actually saying anything untrue (although it would be misleading). I suspect most of us could unless we're married to saints.

Does that mean my marriage has elements of LTB? Seems like a low bar.

This is a great answer and possibly true for many, certainly me.

Sadly, I also think many women (and men) put up with too much and can't or won't leave.

I think a lot of women struggle with boundaries and expectations.

In particular, the theme of 'husband goes to work, has the money therefore is in control of the money, woman is responsible for the house and dcs, even when she is working FT' is a very strong one....

What I see on MN is that there a group of people with a very high bar of what is acceptable/unacceptable.
in RL, people make 'concessions', some times in a very wise way, some times because 'thats normal', some times because their boundaries are crap.

Sexism is a good example for that.
We, as women, often accept a lot wo batting an eyelid because the behaviour is 'normal' (eg poor man needs to sleep at night but mum gets up). Wo another framework and someone to point out there is no reason for it to be like this, we accept it.
Someone else who has a different outlook, maybe is refusing that sort of sexist crap, will say 'Nope. Not ok. Its either he gets up or that's the end of it' (for example because its just the start of the slippery slope etc...).

I don't think anyone is right or wrong. But I think this explains a lot why there is so many LTB on here (Plus its easier said than done, which is a whole other discussion)

Everyone has faults. Sometimes in relationships, people do and say things that annoy/upset/irritate the spouse. Doesn't mean boundaries are low, or whatever catchphrase you want to use.

Even women are capable of it, despite mnets hatred of men - I'm sure there are plenty of leave the bitch moments. Women are not infallible. Relationships take work.

Yes - great post. Thank you

Even women are capable of it, despite mnets hatred of men - I'm sure there are plenty of leave the bitch moments
You'll notice I specifically said non gendered LTB in my OP

People in their 20's and 30's are the throwaway generation.

They don't want to work to keep things together and are quite happy to ditch and move on. They also mainly have an over idolised version of what they should be doing, and how each should behave (based on crap they see on instagram and the like - couples all trying to out do each other on holidays/spa days/birthdays etc) so if partner isn't doing all of that and more, he's basically a shit husband.

I can guarantee in 80 years time there will be barely any couples celebrating 50 yrs of marriage!

DH and I definitely have our moments. NO one is perfect. But the grass isn't greener. People are human. I think younger people now don't want to compromise - they want everything perfect.

@Blueberryflavour

I think apart from actual financial, physical, emotional or sexual abuse within a marriage there are differing views of LTB “ crimes”. Some things in my marriage other MN’s would find unacceptable ( my DH has MH issues which make living with him difficult at times) but I don’t see that as LTB worthy. On the other hand I see things in other marriages that I would find unacceptable for myself. I wouldn’t judge another woman who has different boundaries than I do and makes the decision to Leave “Her” Bastard

This is very true. My DH has also has had quite severe MH issues, including not being able to work for almost 8 months, which was very hard. It never even entered my head to leave and our marriage is very good, stronger now for having gone through that, and he has supported me through similarly big/hard stuff. But I wouldn't judge someone else if that was way too far for them and that was their 'I'll leave' moment.

I think most marriages do, but I also think it’s quite subjective. What one person might accept, another won’t. In reality there aren’t really any rules (yes there is the law for more extreme circumstances) but you can choose what you will and won’t tolerate.

I also think that compromise is often the secret to long marriage. IMO it’s not possible to be married for decades and decades and not have any blips where your boundaries are pushed.. I think if you lead busy lives it’s inevitable at some point. I’m not saying people should accept poor treatment but no one is perfect and overcoming some difficulties can make you stronger as a couple in the long run. I actually think today too many people throw in the towel at the first hurdle rather than work through something- it’s a case of expecting perfection whereas real life over a long period of time is far from that and marriage to me is the long haul. X

ummm, no. I don't think so. I sometimes think 'I wouldn't put up with that' - so friends with other halves who go out all the time, or have an all consuming hobby - but that's not LTB, it's just stuff I wouldn't like in my life.

I also think that, people don't tend to post on here looking for relationship advice when they're 100% happy. So the things they're mentioning are a problem for them, even if they might not be LTB-worthy to someone else. So LTB might seem like the right response.

I think abuse is clearly different though. Nobody should tolerate abusive behaviour.

I don't think most marriages have elements of abuse, no. I do think that most marriages have objectionable aspects, and you pick your poison. So there are things about other people's relationships - for instance their DH needing to have control over decision making, infrequent sex, not liking to spend time with family or have people over, which I couldn't tolerate.

Similarly there will be things about my marriage - the fact that we both really like a drink, some past financial mismanagement, which would be unbearable to someone else and constitute LTB behaviour. So it's about finding the right kind of wrongs for you.

@CoastalWave

People in their 20's and 30's are the throwaway generation.

They don't want to work to keep things together and are quite happy to ditch and move on. They also mainly have an over idolised version of what they should be doing, and how each should behave (based on crap they see on instagram and the like - couples all trying to out do each other on holidays/spa days/birthdays etc) so if partner isn't doing all of that and more, he's basically a shit husband.

I can guarantee in 80 years time there will be barely any couples celebrating 50 yrs of marriage!

DH and I definitely have our moments. NO one is perfect. But the grass isn't greener. People are human. I think younger people now don't want to compromise - they want everything perfect.

The divorce rate has actually fallen in recent years - other than the extremes of the pandemic, so this is demonstrably not true. It was highest in 1992, before those of us in our 20's and 30's were walking, or even born.

The reason that fewer marriages last now, compared before the 1970s, is because women are more able to leave. Financial freedom and better educational levels meant that people were less likely to be trapped in unhappy marriages.

Reducing everything to social media is terribly lazy (as well as proven untrue by the divorce data). Divorce if not a moral failing. If you are unhappy within a relationship you absolutely should leave.

I've been married since my mid-twenties I can can categorically say that compromise is an essential part of our relationship, just as it is for everyone. Your generation doesn't have the monopoly on it.

I think you’re right in the sense that no marriage is perfect. If I came on MN and wrote a post about how bloody messy my husband is, I think I’d get told to LTB. But that wouldn’t take account of all the great things about him and our marriage. He is messy but I find the good massively outweighs the bad.

But I disagree in the sense that all the things you’ve listed are abuse and therefore dealbreakers in my book. And I don’t think they’re commonplace in marriages or at least not in happy ones.

Yes most marriages I observe have Ltb elements in them. People just tolerate it because it's easier than getting divorced.

I totally agree. I wouldn't want to be in any of my friends' marriages, they all look like they have issues and they would all say that they are happily married and there is no abuse (i might disagree). I thought my marriage was happy and although my husband did a lot of the things you list I just didn't recognise it as abuse. People even told me they thought he was abusing me and I just thought they had got the wrong end of the stick. It was only when I made the decision to leave that I realised what his behaviour had been. For those that have been in abusive relationships I think you are now so alert to red flags (hence posters giving LTB advice for any indiscretion!) but those who haven't been through it might not see where these red flags can lead. I also think if you are being abused you've been conditioned over years - your abuser isn't telling you he is financially abusing you or controlling, he's been manipulating you over years to accept whatever it is he wants. It isnt always obvious to you that something is really wrong. I experienced a lot of cognitive dissonance trying to make sense of things my husband did or said when he was at the same time telling me he loved me etc.

Some people are prepared to put up with stuff that would send others running for the hills - not just real red flag things, but more low level "behaviour".

I've been married twice and I have to say my second husband does do things that would have enraged me if my first husband did them - but that's because he fundamentally didn't love or respect me so when husband 1 did them it just felt like another example of his disrespect. When husband 2 does them I just assume the best.

I was happily married for 16 years, right up to DH’s death. He never exhibited a single red flag, or any LTB behaviour. He was my life support system, best friend, lover, and a wonderful dad to our babies. He cooked, cleaned, chauffeured, shopped, changed nappies, the lot.
I am sure he wasn’t the only decent husband in the world, but happy wives don’t need to request advice on MN, so we only hear from those with ghastly husbands, seeking encouragement to leave.

things like financial control, secret drinking, debts, cocklodging, contempt, verbal abuse

No way! Those are all LTB situations. I think that people who have never been in a good relationship just think no such thing exists.

If you have mutual respect, mutual trust, honesty and can actually talk to each other, even about things you disagree on, then not much can go wrong. Good marriages are most definitely teamwork and your partner is your support and comfort.

Totally agree.

Most men I hear about are feckless, drunk, abusive etc.

Most of the time the women just put up with it.

@CoastalWave

People in their 20's and 30's are the throwaway generation.

They don't want to work to keep things together and are quite happy to ditch and move on. They also mainly have an over idolised version of what they should be doing, and how each should behave (based on crap they see on instagram and the like - couples all trying to out do each other on holidays/spa days/birthdays etc) so if partner isn't doing all of that and more, he's basically a shit husband.

I can guarantee in 80 years time there will be barely any couples celebrating 50 yrs of marriage!

DH and I definitely have our moments. NO one is perfect. But the grass isn't greener. People are human. I think younger people now don't want to compromise - they want everything perfect.

I don't think this is a bad thing. I would rather leave a relationship that had become more hard work than enjoyment. I don't believe relationships should be hard work. I've had some horrible ones in the past that I'm very glad I'm not in anymore. Who decided being married forever was an achievement anyway?

All of the things you've mentioned OP would make me leave someone (if I had the resources to do so, of course). I agree no relationship is perfect and everyone has faults but the things you listed are serious - permissible faults in my book would be getting a bit heated sometimes over differences of opinion, mildly mismatched levels of tidiness, being flaky or forgetful occasionally... really minor things. Any deeper level of conflict would make me personally feel I'd be better off single.

Glad I married the right man then.

I think the key is how you manage the LTB behaviour. Some of what you listed is just out and out abuse eg. financial control, verbal abuse. I wouldn’t stand for that at all. It isn’t something I’d be willing to work on or compromise over.

Other stuff such as debts and drinking I could live with IF my DH owned up to his shit and got help for it.

My DH was a very flirty person. Male, female, young, old - didn’t matter. One time it went too far. Not an affair at all, but it resulted in a women becoming obsessed with him. Enough was enough. DH went to therapy and actually dug deep into why he HAS to be liked by EVERYONE, hence the overly friendly/flirty behaviour which can give women the wrong impression. It has never been an issue since. He switches that side of his personality on when it’s useful (eg. at work as he works in a sales role) & chills out and is truer to himself any other time. Many people would have said that was LTB behaviour but he truly adores. We have never, ever raised our voices at each other, swore at each other, slammed doors or stormed out the house. He out earns me massively and to level things out contributes to my saves (which only I have access to) so that if I ever want to leave him lack of financial stability won’t stop me. He said he’d never want to think I was only with him because I couldn’t afford to leave him.

I have to agree with the OP too. Mostly, other people's marriages look fine when you don't know the people very well. However, maybe it's me and I have an odd choice of friends without exception the marriages of my close friends are all pretty dreadful. As others have said, there seem to be good patches mixed in with the misery, but by and large I think a lot of people's marriages are a crock of shit.