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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think outdated terms in literature should be changed?

223 replies

ValerieCupcake · 16/03/2022 09:57

I'm reading a book at the minute. I am not going to share the title, but it is historical fiction. Set in Victorian London. It was written only about 4 years ago. But it uses words that are now inappropriate. Dwarf, midget and the n-word. This is an attempt to replicate speech and terms of the time. But should this be allowed?

I find it uncomfortable. But that is how they spoke. It is not allowed on TV. So should it be in literature?

OP posts:
CaptainThe95thRifles · 16/03/2022 13:30

You can definitely write a novel and it be deliberately very historically inaccurate- but then it should be in fantasy or general fiction and not call itself historical fiction

To be fair, most historical fiction is ludicrously historically inaccurate, and wouldn't be made noticably more so by not using the words used in the OP. This just seems like a really bizarre argument to me given the accepted levels of inaccuracy in most historical fiction. I mean, I love the Sharpe books, and in some ways they're great, and better researched than many, but they're hardly an accurate history of the period.

SarahAndQuack · 16/03/2022 13:32

@AmyDudley

The point about words that are offensive nowadays is that they show attitude. Changing the word for Turmeric doesn't matter because turmeric is a noun with not connotations other than its straightforward meaning. A word which is a racist/ homophobic etc slur show the way people thought, the way that these attitudes were integrated so deeply in society that people used the words freely with no thought that they were offensive. People from my ethnic background have been subjected to abusive terms for centuries. I have heard every one of them, my Father was abused on a daily basis growing up in the 1920's and 30's. I would find it offensive if a portrayal of my ethnic group in past times failed to include the type of abuse people were subjected to and the type of prejudicial attitudes that meant people were treated as a lower type of being or even as subhuman in some eras. We can't clean up history, these things happened to actual human beings, people went through their daily lives dealing with abuse, I want people to know about that. I want people to think about how wrong it was, I want them to understand that in days gone by people thought it was OK to treat people like this and because it was so ingrained in society, terrible atrocities were allowed to happen. It is a totally different scenario from translating the word that was used to describe a vegetable or whatever so that people know what you mean. Because vegetables and spices have no history of being the victims of prejudice. If you change the words that were used out of bigotry you eradicate the experience of those who suffered from the bigotry. We need to know where we've been to understand where we need to go.
I do get where you're coming from (except the idea that it's all about progress from 'where we've been' to 'where we need to go' - because if that were true, how come people try to make texts more racist sometimes, as well as less racist?).

But I don't see how you can separate out 'inoffensive' words from offensive ones. Sure, the names of spices aren't offensive (though, FWIW, there is a huge association between colonisation and exploitation of black/Jewish peoples, and the spice trade, which possibly makes it a bit murky). But if you translate all your nice, non-offensive random words for spices or fruits or pieces of clothing, then you subconsciously put your reader into a mental space where they're hearing more-or-less modern English.

In that mental space, a racial slur that these days is shocking, is going to sound jarringly shocking - more shocking than if it were in context. So the whole texture of all of the language matters.

I don't advocate whitewashing attitudes we now find offensive, but I do think sometimes, people retain offensive terms for the shock value in a way I find a bit cheap.

MajorCarolDanvers · 16/03/2022 13:32

No

But we should make sure our education system is good enough so that people reading them understand this.

The cancel culture does not allow people to learn from the mistake of history - it just erases these mistakes.

lemonnandliime · 16/03/2022 13:36

If a book, film, tv show or whatever is set in a period in history where this behaviour was normal then that's how it should be portrayed.

We can't just erase history.

If it offends you don't read or watch it.

ValerieCupcake · 16/03/2022 13:39

@lemonnandliime

If a book, film, tv show or whatever is set in a period in history where this behaviour was normal then that's how it should be portrayed.

We can't just erase history.

If it offends you don't read or watch it.

Do you think a TV drama made today would use those terms? Cripple, and the ones I've mentioned? I haven't seen or heard any. Except for the Stephen Lawrence drama and documentary. Any others?
OP posts:
girlmom21 · 16/03/2022 13:42

Do you think a TV drama made today would use those terms? Cripple, and the ones I've mentioned? I haven't seen or heard any. Except for the Stephen Lawrence drama and documentary. Any others?

Watch The Witcher

endofthelinefinally · 16/03/2022 13:57

I remember several conversations around "Of Mice and Men" when DD was studying it for GCSE, both between ourselves and wrt the conversations at school. I think generally the conclusions were in favour of keeping the language, but being sensitive to talking honestly with students about it and respecting people's reactions/feelings. I reckon it must be very difficult given that in a class of lots of different ethnic backgrounds there would be differing responses. I still think, on balance, it is better to not censor the language. It should make us feel uncomfortable/disgusted/sad/angry.

donquixotedelamancha · 16/03/2022 14:05

Where do you draw the line?

"Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."

Nanny0gg · 16/03/2022 14:10

@110APiccadilly

I'm uneasy about the Dambusters example because that was a real dog, who was really called something very offensive. Do we want to pretend he wasn't, because the man who owned and named him was undoubtedly a very brave man? Are we not able to cope with the idea that someone can be heroic (and if you look at what Gibson did, that's not really debatable) but not perfect?
The word used then was widely used to describe a certain shade of brown. Whether in that context it was meant to be offensive rather than factual I don't know.

But it certainly wouldn't have been used offensively when he named the dog.

samyeagar · 16/03/2022 14:15

Just wait another 50 years...

I mean, every generation think they are the pinnacle of enlightenment until the next one comes along. Things people are saying and doing right now will be seen as ridiculous and viewed with just as much contempt as we currently view the past.

Todays paragons are tomorrows pariahs.

CrossStichQueen · 16/03/2022 14:17

Do you think a TV drama made today would use those terms? Cripple, and the ones I've mentioned? I haven't seen or heard any. Except for the Stephen Lawrence drama and documentary. Any others?

I am pretty sure the word cripple was used in Call the midwife as were other now outdated terms for disabled people, gay people and anyone not white british as this program is set in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s.

girlmom21 · 16/03/2022 14:19

@CrossStichQueen

Do you think a TV drama made today would use those terms? Cripple, and the ones I've mentioned? I haven't seen or heard any. Except for the Stephen Lawrence drama and documentary. Any others?

I am pretty sure the word cripple was used in Call the midwife as were other now outdated terms for disabled people, gay people and anyone not white british as this program is set in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s.

Actually I think there were racist terms used in The Larkins recently too
PleaseBeSeated · 16/03/2022 14:20

@girlmom21

Do you think a TV drama made today would use those terms? Cripple, and the ones I've mentioned? I haven't seen or heard any. Except for the Stephen Lawrence drama and documentary. Any others?

Watch The Witcher

Or Martin McDonagh's well-known play, The Cripple of Inishmaan -- set in Ireland in 1934, written and first staged late 1990s, revived hugely successfully in 2013/14 in London and Broadway (and on several subsequent occasions internationally) with Daniel Radcliffe in the title role as 'Cripple Billy' , who is addressed throughout the play as this (and gets fired from his Hollywood role in favour of an able-bodied American who's better at acting a disability...).
BoredZelda · 16/03/2022 14:32

Because most of us wouldn't be able to read a considerable amount of historical fiction written with perfect accuracy, would we?

Not sure what you are saying here? I prefer historical fiction to be accurate in all matters. Perfection is probably taking the piss, but accuracy in the type of language used doesn't just include racist language, there are a whole heap of other cultural references in language that would be included.

There's no reason you should know about it! It's just an example - I had to study it for A Level and taught it a few years ago: basically, at various points in the history of the play, people have argued that Shakespeare represented something offensive when he made Othello black, and 'modern' people would find it much nicer and less offensive if they picture him as just slightly tanned.

Interesting. I've never heard that argument made.

BoredZelda · 16/03/2022 14:35

Do you think a TV drama made today would use those terms? Cripple, and the ones I've mentioned? I haven't seen or heard any. Except for the Stephen Lawrence drama and documentary. Any others?

There are plenty. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say you know that.

Any other terms you want to throw on to the thread as examples of words you feel shouldn't be used in literature (but are perfectly ok to type on here, apparently)?

BoredZelda · 16/03/2022 14:37

I mean, every generation think they are the pinnacle of enlightenment until the next one comes along. Things people are saying and doing right now will be seen as ridiculous and viewed with just as much contempt as we currently view the past.

You mean, every generation learns more about why they should treat minorities better and adjust language accordingly.

I assume you aren't suggesting that's a bad thing.

AKASammyScrounge · 16/03/2022 14:37

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

Look at the book bans in US schools. Things like To Kill a Mockingbird.
A school in Edinburgh has banned TKAM as well. Someone took exception to the n-word. If they keep on censoring, we'll be left with books which show that no one was ever abusive to a person of colour.

I was pulled up by a 14 year old while I was reading the class a Siegfried Sassoon poem. She interrupted with a shriek,'You're not allowed to say that!'
As it turned out, she objected to the word 'Hun' in the poem.

ValerieCupcake · 16/03/2022 14:39

@BoredZelda

Do you think a TV drama made today would use those terms? Cripple, and the ones I've mentioned? I haven't seen or heard any. Except for the Stephen Lawrence drama and documentary. Any others?

There are plenty. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say you know that.

Any other terms you want to throw on to the thread as examples of words you feel shouldn't be used in literature (but are perfectly ok to type on here, apparently)?

Zelda, this is the second time you have attempted to bait. Stop it now. Thank you. I've already reported your first attempt to goad.
OP posts:
etulosba · 16/03/2022 14:53

I'm uneasy about the Dambusters example because that was a real dog, who was really called something very offensive.

It wasn’t regarded as offensive then. Not in the UK. It was just a word. I remember watching some interviews with black American servicemen who came to the UK during WW2. They were surprised when locals, even children, would use the “n” word in conversations with them, but soon realised that there was no malice intended.

FleetwoodRaincoat · 16/03/2022 15:05

YABVU. Provide a warning at the beginning and leave it at that. I absolutely hate books being re-written. It's part of our history, and so long as it's shown that it isn't acceptable now then that's fine.

OneTC · 16/03/2022 15:19

If translation isn't change, why is it ok to translate 'setewale' to 'tumeric' but not to translate an ethnic slur?

Translate it to what?

Brefugee · 16/03/2022 15:19

The most recent film version of Swallows & Amazons called the younger sister Tatty instead of the regular shortening of her name Titania. And i can be on board with that kind of thing because it distracts otherwise. The dog in The Dambusters film gets the name kind of aurally smudged these days too, i think.

But some people really do use racist epithets, even now, and it would be bizarre to have, say, neo nazis wandering around beating up people because of their colour or because they're Jewish, stumbling round not using the words they would normally use because modern ears are too sensitive. In cases like that, yes, it is completely horrific if you are black or Jewish to hear those things suddenly in a film or play or come across them in a book. But how else do you handle it? Because if they aren't using racial epithets while kicking someone to death because of the colour of their skin - they are kind of regular psycopaths instead of racist ones. The motivation is different and seen to be different. I'm not sure how we could handle that properly, unless warnings are given.

BoredZelda · 16/03/2022 15:29

This is the second time you have attempted to bait. Stop it now. Thank you. I've already reported your first attempt to goad

I'm not baiting or goading. I'm actually interested how you can claim these words shouldn't be in printed literature but have littered this thread with them?

SartresSoul · 16/03/2022 15:30

Stalin did this. It’s censorship and it has absolutely no place within a democracy.

Fernandina · 16/03/2022 15:37

In my view, the censorship of historical documents should not happen. They are what they are, and should remain so. Otherwise, where will it end?