AIBU to think outdated terms in literature should be changed?

[ValerieCupcake]

I'm reading a book at the minute. I am not going to share the title, but it is historical fiction. Set in Victorian London. It was written only about 4 years ago. But it uses words that are now inappropriate. Dwarf, midget and the n-word. This is an attempt to replicate speech and terms of the time. But should this be allowed?

I find it uncomfortable. But that is how they spoke. It is not allowed on TV. So should it be in literature?

@TunaTastic

It's all about the context and we should be very careful not to remove the everyday injustices that many people experienced for decades and still do.

So if a 12year old girl as the narrator in the book looked at a group of adult musicians and used their race to define them that is correct for victorian or even 1980s england. If the narrator is an observer to the scene, not a character it would be totally wrong in 2022 to use those terms, which is presumably what makes Agatha Christie an uncomfortable read. I'd still argue that my discomfort was helpful in understanding Agatha's background, class etc and 20th century attitudes.

This is very true - there is a world of difference between the voice/views of a character in the book, and the voice/views of the author coming through in descriptions of people.

@Brefugee but as I said before, where is this authenticity of voice when it comes to using language that isn't recognised today? You can't say it's authentic when the only historically accurate language used is the offensive terms, and everything else is written in modern English.

@Thatswhyimacat

I don't agree with rewriting anything that was written back then, but I do think going forwards modern writers should avoid those terms in their writing.

People are perfectly happy to read novels set in Tudor times where they speak in modern language, but get up in arms about the need for historical accuracy in using offensive terms. A good writer can depict attitudes of a time without using offensive language. Anything more now is just an attempt to shock.

That's utter balderdash. How are you going to write dialogue if you have to use only contemporary language? Or are you saying that no one should write historical fiction?

@theworldhas

So a historical work of fiction could presumably have a lynching/hanging of a black personal but couldn’t feature the N word? Doesn’t that seem ridiculous?

Exactly, which is why we need to know what the book is to be able to judge it. If it was published nearly seven years ago I am sure there would have been an out cry about it if it was gratuitously offensive, so I don't understand why OP won't name it.

I think modern novels set in historic times should reflect accurately the thoughts, words and deeds of the time. It can be shocking, and I think that's appropriate. We should learn from history, not sanitise it.

It's not Go Set a Watchman, is it? That was published in 2015, but it was written in the 50s.

Sanitising history is a very dangerous path to start down.

[quote Thatswhyimacat]@Brefugee but as I said before, where is this authenticity of voice when it comes to using language that isn't recognised today? You can't say it's authentic when the only historically accurate language used is the offensive terms, and everything else is written in modern English.[/quote]
I still think that there is an argument that its acceptable to use modern English while still using the terms of the time that is being written about. I don't think that it would work (or be right) to mix those terms with modern idiom but I don't think that the whole book MUST be written in the laguage of the time to a point where it makes the book difficult to read. i do agree though that its a fine line thing.....less problematic in the 1960's, more problematic in the 1660's

@steff13

It's not Go Set a Watchman, is it? That was published in 2015, but it was written in the 50s.

OP said the book is set in Victorian London!

Yes, it should be in literature. History isn't always comfortable and erasing that fact is wrong.

OP said the book is set in Victorian London!

Oh, sorry, I overlooked they part. Too bad she won't say what it is. It must be really "outing." 🙄

@HamsterTrumpet

I think for me the fact it was written 4 years ago makes the difference. I imagine it’s mainly written in today’s English, rather than imitating the Victorian style completely, so I don’t think offensive words should be used. I imagine there are other ways of phrasing things that would get the equivalent strength of feeling across to current readers.

I don’t, however, think that books written in different times should be sanitised - that is the language they used at the time and I think it’s important not to minimise this. An editorial preface pointing this out is a better way to go, I think.

This is my view too.

@endofthelinefinally

How far back do you want to go? Should we rewrite Shakespeare? Dickens? Censor history books?

I don't think 4 years ago is all that far back to be fair!!

You're an adult. Life is full of uncomfortable things. YANBU to be uncomfortable, but YABU to think that the world has to accommodate your sensibilities.

As a pre introduction as a warning state that the language used reflects the time & place where the book is set & that it would be offensive to modern readers

No because I hate it when period drama characters all the "good" characters have 2022 morals and its only the baddies that are racist/homophobic/disabilist etc. Its ridiculous and completely spoils the inaccuracy.

How are new generations going to understand the progression of social values and why things need to change if everything we produce now is watered down and doesn't address the issues? People need to see how bad things were in the past to appreciate the bravery and efforts of those that fought for change and understand how we need to constantly protect those rights lest they get taken away.

If everyone thought like you, bareback mountain would have been a lovely rom com about 2 men falling in love with the full support of their community. The help would have been a very short film about women getting on well with their maids. Etc etc

What I would also say is that 10 years time some common terms will be offensive & that terms used in the English language may be -are- offensive or acceptable within other countries & even within different other social groups & cultures within those countries aka within a specific group referring to each other by a term that outside the group is seen as offensive is OK
(twisting myself in knots trying to explain without using these types of terms - the example I am thing of is based within the USA communities)

I think Call the Midwife has fallen into this trap, especially in the last few seasons. The characters react in a modern way and it ruins the story. If I wanted to see modern characters, I'd watch a soap, and in the same way if I wanted to read modern characters, I'd pick something contemporary and not historical fiction.

As an aside - as a published author, the idea of someone coming in and editing my work years down the line because some of the language has become offensive is upsetting to me. The author picked the words they wanted to use to best represent their vision of the story. Changing that is a bit like painting over offensive bits in paintings - it's an insult to the creator and the story being told.

Volunteers required to re-write Shakespeare and to Bible in politically correct English. Apply at mumsnet.com .

@SirGawain

Volunteers required to re-write Shakespeare and to Bible in politically correct English. Apply at mumsnet.com .

Bloody hell we can't even agree on what shoes are acceptable for school - let alone what's acceptable, inoffensive language for all literature

In fact, somebody will probably be offended by 'bloody hell'!

@mumwon - I agree. Let’s say someone is referred to as having “special needs” in a contemporary book set in Victorian England. You can bet your bottom dollar that in a few years (or probably even now) this term will be outdated and there will be people outraged at its use.

YABU. It might be uncomfortable to read those words but if they’re appropriate to the time they’re writing it, it’s fine. It’s also uncomfortable to read about the treatment of women then, people of colour and lots of other things that were absolutely part and parcel of existing at that time. Where do you draw the line?

No because I hate it when period drama characters all the "good" characters have 2022 morals and its only the baddies that are racist/homophobic/disabilist etc. Its ridiculous and completely spoils the inaccuracy.

I hated Anne With an E for this reason.

Nomination for world’s most stupid book ever was The Miniaturist in which the young female heroine was nipping about Rotterdam in the 17th century unaccompanied and of course being absolutely cool with her Dh/fiancée (can’t remember) being gay.

Similarly a daft tv thing called The Crimson Fields (?) about WWI nurses. Everyone sympathetic to deserters and men having assignations with each other. I don’t think so in 1914 !!! (Most - certainly women - would not know what was even going on.)

I really dislike only the 'bad' characters having the standard moral and ethics of the appropriate period and the good characters being all 2022. It makes for a thin story. I'm struggling a bit with the most recent Mrs Maisel at the moment on Prime. No one in the 1950s seems to have any problem with mixed race relationships, sex outside marriage, birth control, women in the audience of strip clubs......

My big exception to cutting out offensive terms is genre stories so unless say racism is a feature of the stories universe then the space cowboys or steampunk Victorians shouldn't be casually using terms or attitudes that aren't desirable for our current day society.