Emily Oster on Breastfeeding - minimal benefits.

[IamOvercome]

I am pregnant with my first and am an economist so I was recommended books by fellow economist Emily Oster. The books don’t give advice. They review the statistical studies underlying pregnancy advice and whether they are any good or not.

It’s been such an eye opener. For example it is pushed pushed and pushed some more that breast is best. But when you review the evidence there is minimal evidence for benefits of breastfeeding for babies. The strongest evidence is actually for mothers that it can marginally reduce chance of breast cancer in later life.

Same with not introducing babies to bottle to confuse them when breastfeeding. Literally no concrete evidence for it.

Yet this is all pushed as clear cut facts by midwives and other health professionals.

@LabiaMinoraPissusFlapus

Your post was one of the most disgusting things I have ever read. I’m sure that was your point, to stir things up, to try and be ‘controversial’. I can only conclude you’re not a woman and a revolting troll, as no woman (or human come to that), would spout that absolute nonsense and vitriol in a forum that is meant to help women.

do you actually want to breastfeed OP? or are you preparing yourself if you cant so that you dont feel bad? (not in a nasty way, as stated before not bothered how others feed) I'm just curious at to the motive behind this thread as even when posters have provided studies to benefits of breastfeeding you've countered them or basically said you're still not convinced? I'm wondering what it is you're looking for - someone provided a link to a study that the WHO did for example and others have too.

I’d argue the impact on the environment your baby will be living in is definitely worth considering as “for the baby”.

Here you go www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5710346/

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6177445/ And another about diarrhoeal illness. Though you said this is mentioned in the book. So you are already aware that breastfeeding>FF with that regard. Not sure how this is even a debate at this point but you seem to be intent on sticking to your guns and provoking reaction from people who are trying to support whatever choice you make.

I think it's blindingly obvious that the milk a mother produces for her own baby, tailor made for their age and containing antibodies, is going to be superior to formula.

That said, in a country with clean water supply and electricity, formula is a perfectly adequate and safe choice. But let's not pretend it's equal.

Well, for a start off, formula is only good until there is no formula and clean water or bottles. I bet the breastfeeding mamas of Ukraine are bloody glad they chose breastfeeding right now. There is something very comforting in knowing that you can provide for your baby and you're not reliant on the a product you have to buy or hope that it can be restocked. Breastfeeding is free and self sufficient, it's biologically made for baby humans. Formula saves lives for sure, It's got it's important role in society. but nobody can deny that breastfeeding is the best out of the two choices because one is a substitute and one is what nature intended. It's not even an opinion it's facts.

Defensive of what? Having breastfed? Nobody has ever shamed me or made me feel bad about breastfeeding. Whereas women who give formula ARE made to feel bad by some people, but I think on these threads offence is taken where it’s not intended

Well, exactly. No one ever made me feel bad for breastfeeding either but the same can’t be said of formula feeding.

I meant defensive of the suggestion that actually breastfeeding your baby or formula feeding them has minimal impact on their individual outcomes. Some bf mothers seem very upset to think that others parenting choices might be good as their own.

And I don’t agree that the comments are not intended to cause offence. There have been some disgraceful ones on this thread, and every other thread and even if there weren’t - the very essence of “breast is best” is saying to ff mothers “I did a better job feeding my baby than you did with yours”.

@Scooby5kids

Well, for a start off, formula is only good until there is no formula and clean water or bottles. I bet the breastfeeding mamas of Ukraine are bloody glad they chose breastfeeding right now. There is something very comforting in knowing that you can provide for your baby and you're not reliant on the a product you have to buy or hope that it can be restocked. Breastfeeding is free and self sufficient, it's biologically made for baby humans. Formula saves lives for sure, It's got it's important role in society. but nobody can deny that breastfeeding is the best out of the two choices because one is a substitute and one is what nature intended. It's not even an opinion it's facts.

As if you brought Ukraine into it

Is breastfeeding the choice that a lot of posters here think it is? Everyone I know who formula fed did so due to medical reasons. Not that it’s bad for those that chose to. Obviously my circle of friends is limited, so I can’t extrapolate. Bringing up Ukraine is a bit of a low blow, for those that ‘didn’t choose’ (as the lovely pp put it) to breastfeed must be absolutely terrified.

‘I bet the breastfeeding mamas of Ukraine are bloody glad they chose breastfeeding right now’

Now this statement is problematic, not least you mentioned Ukraine but because you think that women choose not to breastfeed, some women choose not to and that’s fine but others(a lot on this thread) didn’t get a choice, for whatever reason (having to go back to work, milk supply issues, latching issues, mental health issues) making them feel like they failed their baby for something they couldn’t do through no fault of their own is just a really shitty thing to do and I bet those women who in your words ‘chose not to breastfeed’ are absolutely terrified for their babies right now.

@lavaa

do you actually want to breastfeed OP? or are you preparing yourself if you cant so that you dont feel bad? (not in a nasty way, as stated before not bothered how others feed) I'm just curious at to the motive behind this thread as even when posters have provided studies to benefits of breastfeeding you've countered them or basically said you're still not convinced? I'm wondering what it is you're looking for - someone provided a link to a study that the WHO did for example and others have too.

Hmmm to be honest this is very similar to posters saying was I asking about the research as I feel guilty about not breastfeeding / as I don’t want to and given your posts on this thread ranting about the thread I tnink you’re being pretty disingenuous.

Re WHO study it has clear omitted variables.

Thanks for the interesting thread OP. I'm pregnant with my third. I BF the first two and plan to do the same with this one. I found BF excruciatingly hard on round 1, and a bit easier, albeit very painful on round 2.

I appreciate wholeheartedly the evidence based slant that you have brought to this and can see from many of the replies (and from my own experience) how emotions about the subject cloud opinions and breed unhelpful cliches and tropes devoid of logic.

I agree with most of the points you argue, and for years have held the opinion that however you feed your baby is the best way to feed your baby - FF or BF - by default, if it's working during what is an incredibly stressful transition for all then it's optimal.

However despite knowing that it's hard, and despite understanding that the evidence based paths discussed here point towards there being no benefit in BFing, there are reasons why I will do it on round 3 regardless, and these are the same reasons why I would be reluctant to tell a new mum that there is no difference whatsoever between FF and BFing if they were asking advice as to whether to give BFing a shot or not.

My first developed sepsis (kidney condition) at 12 weeks, leading to a very hard hospital stay. BFing through this was a valuable tool. If the baby was latched then the docs could do anything to him (cannulas, injections, examinations) and he would be in a hypnotic trance completely focused on sucking (even when there was no milk in there) . If I was unavailable and my husband or mum was there to hold him each of these experiences (they all happened a lot) were vastly more painful/traumatic (for all).

After I noticed this with my 1st, I again noticed the same trance-like effect with my 2nd - that there was an immediate physiological reaction at the point they latched. What felt/looked like every muscle in their bodies relaxing simultaneously. What this meant was far less stress/anxiety for all throughout their young babyhood, and far fewer tears, as anything at all could be solved by latching them on.

Now this might just have been my 2 and who knows if it will work again with the 3rd, but if it does, even if this is a purely personal experience, and is not comparable to anyone else, it means that I know of a benefit of BFing (for me + my babies) which cannot be quantified by evidence, and if I know of a benefit which I don't think fits the evidence based mould, how many others are there?

None of this means that the 'breast is best' trope isn't bollocks, and my advice to anyone would always be 'whatever works'. However I do wonder if this study is possibly missing the part of the story which can't fit into the categorisation which evidence based approaches require.

Gawd that was long - sorry.

@DomesticatedZombie

Environmental impact isn’t for baby - so, who's it for? Which world is your baby going to be born into?

Well, quite.

It's also astounding that you seem to be dismissing all the benefits to the mother.

I agree with the PP who wrote this:

"Things that benefit the mother can also benefit the baby indirectly, much as things that benefit the baby can also benefit the mother indirectly. They don't need to be in neat categories of one or the other nor do they need to be put into a hierarchy as if thing that benefit the mother are less important."

@NameChange30 this is as I am talking about the breastfeeding session I attended which said breast is best for the health of the baby - but I can’t find concrete evidence of this (notwithstanding I’m yet to read about the microbiome research)

If it's literally life-saving for premature babies whose little gizzards have not finished development, then it's going to only benefit normal term babies. People who work in the field of early baby survival know about preserving the "virgin gut" for as long possible, to give the immune system every chance possible.
Prof. Luke O'Neill at Trinity College Dublin along with many others are already publishing on gut health/immunology and inflammatory disease.
The information is there.

What's also there is massive and quite subversive global marketing by multinationals wanting to sell product.
What's not there so much at all (unless you're lucky) is real peer support for when things are tough with feeding and managing a new baby.

Great Post @LadyLaSnack.

@SunscreenCentral

If it's literally life-saving for premature babies whose little gizzards have not finished development, then it's going to only benefit normal term babies. People who work in the field of early baby survival know about preserving the "virgin gut" for as long possible, to give the immune system every chance possible. Prof. Luke O'Neill at Trinity College Dublin along with many others are already publishing on gut health/immunology and inflammatory disease. The information is there.

What's also there is massive and quite subversive global marketing by multinationals wanting to sell product.
What's not there so much at all (unless you're lucky) is real peer support for when things are tough with feeding and managing a new baby.

This.

@ThePrincessSleptFor100Years

Reading this thread, i think some of the breastfeeding mummies are under the impression that formula fed babies are all poor filthy urchins who are dressed in sacks and left in a drawer all day

I'd love to know where you picked that up 🙄

@SunscreenCentral

It's based the fact that on a blue whale mother's milk is best for a blue whale calf. A mare's milk is best for a foal. A cat's milk is best for a kitten. And so on. A cow's milk can be adapted to suit a human baby, as we know, and goat's milk works well for some babies too. But it's headbangingly obvious that a human's milk is always going to just be more suited.

All of this.

in terms of babies health. Which is lauded as why women should breastfeed.

You keep cherry picking the posts to respond to.

It's not 'health' in sheer physical well-being, as has been pointed out to you. It's the overall well-being of a baby, which is aided by being fed the naturally occurring human milk that meets all their needs.

Formula cannot do the same, which does not obviously equate to it being harmful or any poorer health outcome for a FF baby

You are being quite obtuse. The studies reflect one aspect of breastfeeding & I don't think are particularly relevant. But optimally, all human babies would have human milk. How would you argue otherwise?

Yeah I "brought Ukraine into it" because why not? It's a good example. The fact of the matter is if there was suddenly no way to get formula tomorrow, here in the UK, or anywhere, there would be a lot of babies health in jeopardy. I'm not saying people "have a choice". I've very aware some people can't do it. Formula literally saves lives! But the fact of the matter is, if formula suddenly became hard to get, my baby is still gonna get fed because I don't have to rely on circumstances of other people to feed my child. It's not a flex! It's just pointing out another reason breastfeeding is good. People can roll their eyes and be like "As if you mentioned Ukraine" all they want. But I've got a good point.

I think it is fair enough for some to of questioned your motive OP, especially considering as a previous poster pointed out you have not really accepted any of the benefits that have been shown in various studies.

I also think it is fairly obvious - human milk for human baby. whilst formula has no doubt saved many many lives, questioning the benefits of breastfeeding is strange to me - unless you have some hang ups about not wanting to do it.

@Scooby5kids

Yeah I "brought Ukraine into it" because why not? It's a good example. The fact of the matter is if there was suddenly no way to get formula tomorrow, here in the UK, or anywhere, there would be a lot of babies health in jeopardy. I'm not saying people "have a choice". I've very aware some people can't do it. Formula literally saves lives! But the fact of the matter is, if formula suddenly became hard to get, my baby is still gonna get fed because I don't have to rely on circumstances of other people to feed my child. It's not a flex! It's just pointing out another reason breastfeeding is good. People can roll their eyes and be like "As if you mentioned Ukraine" all they want. But I've got a good point.

Tbf to you, this has already happened in the UK. During the supermarket chaos back in March 2020 formula was on of the items that people cleared from the shelves.

I was still breastfeeding at the time and was so thankful that I was and that I knew my baby would he fed at least.

@Twizbe exactly. I maybe shouldn't have used Ukraine it was extreme. But my point was more like what you're saying. Breastfeeding has a lot of practical benefits if people are able to get onto a good start with it.

I completely understand that formula does have it's important place. I had a premie baby who had to have formula feeds for the first few days until my milk was established and wasn't able to actually breastfeed for 2 weeks because he had to be tube fed, so I am thankful we have it because without it my son would have died unless there was donor milk available. I've had 5 babies and had different breastfeeding journeys, some more successful than others but I'm a great believer that if you can, you should, because it's a great feeling knowing you're providing for your baby

Emily Oster is a great economist and I’m sure and she understands research design. Unfortunately what she doesn’t understand is the limitations of the studies she’s talking about in relation to breastfeeding and therefore draws unhelpful conclusions. She is often both right and wrong at the same time.