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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Lost my deposit-AIBU?

231 replies

Outofpocket2022 · 12/03/2022 12:28

Not sure if AIBU to feel a bit annoyed by all of this….
My family and all live in different parts of the country, and although we all visit each other’s different houses etc at various points we try to get all together once a year for a meal out-generally on Mother’s Day.

We booked a restaurant (not a chain-small family owned type place) midway between all of us for Mother’s Day in 2020 but the pandemic happened and it got cancelled. We’d paid a pretty substantial deposit of £70, and the restaurant got in touch to offer either a full refund or that if we still wanted to visit then they would issue a voucher for the sum of the deposit plus a % extra per person as a thank you.
We accepted the voucher (perhaps foolishly in hindsight) and didn’t think anything more of it. Mother’s day 2021 came around and lockdown was still in place so we didn’t book anything.

Fast forward to 2022 and I booked the same restaurant again for Mother’s Day. They emailed asking for a deposit so we got back in touch to explain about the voucher.

Problem is, the voucher has expired.

I’m really annoyed with myself that I didn’t check in advance and also that I didn’t get back in touch with them perhaps the same time last year. But everything was still shut and it didn’t really cross my mind. The restaurant isn’t somewhere we’d pass so wouldn’t have been on the radar for us to visit earlier. I got back in contact with them via email to explain the circumstances and asked if they would be able to reconsider letting us use our part of the deposit (not the extra % they added on for goodwill) and it was a flat no. The response was from the owner rather than other staff so I’m pretty sure it’s the final answer. They said that everyone else who was issue a voucher has used it and they were a small business who had been impacted by Covid and they hoped we understood.

It’s not their fault that the voucher had expired-that’s 100% on us and we should have checked. But £70 is a lot of money to us and it feels a little bit snakey if I’m honest. Especially as they’d asked for our support in the early part of the pandemic by having a voucher issues rather than taking the refund.

So yeh, feeling a bit peeved but would be good to hear others opinions-AIBU?

OP posts:
WomanStanleyWoman · 13/03/2022 11:30

A review/complaint online may not do what people on here think it will do.

Then why are some people so adamant that the OP shouldn’t post a review? If the restaurant is in the right, it won’t do them any harm.

fairylightsandwaxmelts · 13/03/2022 11:57

@WomanStanleyWoman

A review/complaint online may not do what people on here think it will do.

Then why are some people so adamant that the OP shouldn’t post a review? If the restaurant is in the right, it won’t do them any harm.

Because regardless of the outcome, it's a bit shitty to leave an online complaint against a business that hasn't actually done anything wrong.
WomanStanleyWoman · 13/03/2022 12:00

They technically haven’t done anything wrong. Morally?

fairylightsandwaxmelts · 13/03/2022 12:08

@WomanStanleyWoman

They technically haven’t done anything wrong. Morally?
I don't think they've done anything morally wrong either.

They offered her a refund - she declined.
They offered her a voucher which included a discount as a gesture of goodwill. She accepted when she didn't have to - she could have taken the above refund.
She then had the best part of a year to use her voucher - she didn't, nor did she get in touch with the restaurant to ask for an extension or refund, and she didn't see if she could sell the voucher on to someone else.

What, morally, have the restaurant done wrong, exactly?

KatherineJaneway · 13/03/2022 12:21

Why is it a pisstake? They've had the use of the money for two years instead of one, that's to their benefit not OP's.

It's not a piss take to try and use a voucher that is one year out of date?

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 13/03/2022 12:22

@WomanStanleyWoman

They technically haven’t done anything wrong. Morally?
Not technically or morally.
KatherineJaneway · 13/03/2022 12:23

Why would it be unreasonable to use a voucher two years on when we know that there are countries that have a legal requirement that vouchers can be used for five years?

Because the voucher in this country had an end date on it. You can't compare to other country's rules as they simply don't apply here.

LondonDadToBe · 13/03/2022 12:27

@KatherineJaneway

Why is it a pisstake? They've had the use of the money for two years instead of one, that's to their benefit not OP's.

It's not a piss take to try and use a voucher that is one year out of date?

No it’s not. Because a one year term for a voucher which was provided not as some favour to the customer but because they chose to help the business out instead of taking a refund is an absolute pisstake.

The terms of the voucher were unreasonable in the first place and should be legally prohibited.

If the restaurant had in some way lost out by incurring costs or losing alternative business as a result of the OP’s actions then the restaurant might be justified in not returning their £70. In this case the OP’s actions have not cost the restaurant a penny and they have no justification for withholding £70 having provided not a single service.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 13/03/2022 12:29

I admire your patience LondonDad.

HMBB · 13/03/2022 12:29

I think it's a shame they didn't honour it, as they had offered a full refund initially.

I will always accept a refund instead of voucher or credit note if offered one, as I know I have forgotten about vouchers/credit notes in the past.

Go somewhere else and have a lovely Mother's Day

LondonDadToBe · 13/03/2022 12:29

[b]Not technically or morally.[/b]

Taking £70 and providing not a single service and incurring not a penny in costs in return is absolutely morally wrong.

LondonDadToBe · 13/03/2022 12:33

@HMBB

I think it's a shame they didn't honour it, as they had offered a full refund initially.

I will always accept a refund instead of voucher or credit note if offered one, as I know I have forgotten about vouchers/credit notes in the past.

Go somewhere else and have a lovely Mother's Day

I would also always go with a refund from a larger business. More flexibility and certainty that way.

But at the time of the pandemic I did accept vouchers to help small businesses keep their cash flow. Luckily all of those I dealt with were grateful and did not try and keep my money unfairly.

One problem with this restaurants actions is that in addition to keeping OP’s money, they’ll also probably make OP less likely to help out small businesses by accepting vouchers instead of refunds in the future.

Outofpocket2022 · 13/03/2022 12:39

Think I'm starting to feel that there has been a pretty big lack of transparency with the terms of the voucher they issued....

Have got an email from them (in the last few days) which states this

Mother’s Day is our busiest day of the year and we do not accept any vouchers or discount cards on this day

So here's the thing, the original deposit was made via bank transfer to their account, to secure a booking for mother's day 2020. That was the specific day we wanted to go on, for that specific occasion. The deposit was redeemable against our order on that specific day. It's not that we purchased a voucher in advance to use any old time.
The restaurant offer a voucher or a refund. They made a point of emphasising how much the acceptance of a voucher (this was verbally and in writing) would secure their survival during Covid. All good and we accept the voucher.
However, it's now clear to me that if restaurants had indeed been open over Mother's Day 2021 (when our voucher was still in date) we wouldn't have been able to use said voucher because they have only now told us that they don't take vouchers on high days and holidays!

If that had been made transparent at the point of choosing voucher vs refund then we would have absolutely taken the refund! It wasn't an informed choice, and this is the thing because those of u who were saying 'oh you could go anytime' are missing the point that we didn't want to go anytime. We only booked the restaurant on the basis of it being occasion specific and we were happy to put down a deposit for that knowing full well it's not a typical business day for the restaurant.

I still really feel like our goodwill to them has been undermined and exploited to be honest. They've got our £70 and we haven't even had a sniff of anything in return.

OP posts:
JellybeansJelly · 13/03/2022 12:41

@Outofpocket2022

Think I'm starting to feel that there has been a pretty big lack of transparency with the terms of the voucher they issued....

Have got an email from them (in the last few days) which states this

Mother’s Day is our busiest day of the year and we do not accept any vouchers or discount cards on this day

So here's the thing, the original deposit was made via bank transfer to their account, to secure a booking for mother's day 2020. That was the specific day we wanted to go on, for that specific occasion. The deposit was redeemable against our order on that specific day. It's not that we purchased a voucher in advance to use any old time.
The restaurant offer a voucher or a refund. They made a point of emphasising how much the acceptance of a voucher (this was verbally and in writing) would secure their survival during Covid. All good and we accept the voucher.
However, it's now clear to me that if restaurants had indeed been open over Mother's Day 2021 (when our voucher was still in date) we wouldn't have been able to use said voucher because they have only now told us that they don't take vouchers on high days and holidays!

If that had been made transparent at the point of choosing voucher vs refund then we would have absolutely taken the refund! It wasn't an informed choice, and this is the thing because those of u who were saying 'oh you could go anytime' are missing the point that we didn't want to go anytime. We only booked the restaurant on the basis of it being occasion specific and we were happy to put down a deposit for that knowing full well it's not a typical business day for the restaurant.

I still really feel like our goodwill to them has been undermined and exploited to be honest. They've got our £70 and we haven't even had a sniff of anything in return.

What was their policy on vouchers for Mother’s Day two years ago?

Also, you haven’t clarified - where was the expiry date written?

Outofpocket2022 · 13/03/2022 12:47

@JellybeansJelly no idea! There weren't any terms and conditions on the voucher-literally just like a word doc with the company name, amount, and the expiry date. I can't dispute at all that the expiry date isn't clear because it absolutely is.

There's no other ts and cs on their website and it's not even like you can go on their and buy gift vouchers. Nothing on the website at all about vouchers

OP posts:
KatherineJaneway · 13/03/2022 12:53

No it’s not. Because a one year term for a voucher which was provided not as some favour to the customer but because they chose to help the business out instead of taking a refund is an absolute pisstake.

Yes it is. OP agreed to the voucher and to the date or I assume she would have said something at the time.

The terms of the voucher were unreasonable in the first place and should be legally prohibited.

But it is legal and OP agreed to it. What you think should be legal is of no consequence here.

If the restaurant had in some way lost out by incurring costs or losing alternative business as a result of the OP’s actions then the restaurant might be justified in not returning their £70. In this case the OP’s actions have not cost the restaurant a penny and they have no justification for withholding £70 having provided not a single service.

Of course they have justification. OP agreed to a voucher and it is now one year after the voucher expired. OP could have booked in a few months after the original booking once restaurants were open and used the voucher later but chose not to.

LondonDadToBe · 13/03/2022 13:04

@KatherineJaneway

No it’s not. Because a one year term for a voucher which was provided not as some favour to the customer but because they chose to help the business out instead of taking a refund is an absolute pisstake.

Yes it is. OP agreed to the voucher and to the date or I assume she would have said something at the time.

The terms of the voucher were unreasonable in the first place and should be legally prohibited.

But it is legal and OP agreed to it. What you think should be legal is of no consequence here.

If the restaurant had in some way lost out by incurring costs or losing alternative business as a result of the OP’s actions then the restaurant might be justified in not returning their £70. In this case the OP’s actions have not cost the restaurant a penny and they have no justification for withholding £70 having provided not a single service.

Of course they have justification. OP agreed to a voucher and it is now one year after the voucher expired. OP could have booked in a few months after the original booking once restaurants were open and used the voucher later but chose not to.

Of course what I think the legal situation should be is relevant.

The question isn’t whether the restaurant acted legally, it is whether they acted reasonably.

Not a single person has explained why it is reasonable for a business to take £70 from a customer who, out of goodwill did not insist on a refund when the restaurant could not fulfill their booking, and then withhold that money even though they have not spent a penny on the customer.

If it was the OP who cancelled the booking and the voucher was a gesture of good will by the restaurant this would be different. If they refused to put the voucher towards a Mother’s Day booking but offered the original refund to which the OP was entitled, that would be reasonable.

I have this crazy old fashioned view that businesses should only take customers money in return for goods or services. The restaurant hasn’t provided any goods or services and should either honour the voucher or return the money.

And yes, my view on what the legal position ought to be is relevant because my argument is that businesses should not be permitted to behave unreasonably towards consumers.

KatherineJaneway · 13/03/2022 13:37

The question isn’t whether the restaurant acted legally, it is whether they acted reasonably.

Which they did. They offered a full refund or a voucher. OP chose the voucher. Your qualms aside, what they did was not shady or illegal. OP could have easily had the £70 back but chose not to. OP could have spent the voucher when not in lockdown but chose not to. A year is a reasonable time for a voucher.

We clearly won't agree on this but OP chose poorly, that is the issue here. It happens to us all.

LondonDadToBe · 13/03/2022 13:40

@KatherineJaneway

The question isn’t whether the restaurant acted legally, it is whether they acted reasonably.

Which they did. They offered a full refund or a voucher. OP chose the voucher. Your qualms aside, what they did was not shady or illegal. OP could have easily had the £70 back but chose not to. OP could have spent the voucher when not in lockdown but chose not to. A year is a reasonable time for a voucher.

We clearly won't agree on this but OP chose poorly, that is the issue here. It happens to us all.

Sure. The OP chose to help out a business that was unworthy of her help. That was a mistake.

Again, I’m not claiming the restaurant are acting illegally (though their actions should be illegal). I’m saying it’s not reasonable for any business to take £70 and not provide £70 worth of goods or services in return. It’s really the core of the business customer relationship - I give you my money and I get goods or services in return. If I give you my money and get nothing in return that needs more of an explanation than ‘well I’m legally allowed to’.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 13/03/2022 13:46

[quote Outofpocket2022]@JellybeansJelly no idea! There weren't any terms and conditions on the voucher-literally just like a word doc with the company name, amount, and the expiry date. I can't dispute at all that the expiry date isn't clear because it absolutely is.

There's no other ts and cs on their website and it's not even like you can go on their and buy gift vouchers. Nothing on the website at all about vouchers[/quote]
OP, did they tell you about the one year limit before you agreed to accept the voucher?

WombatChocolate · 13/03/2022 13:47

One of the reasons why Op opted for the voucher was the voucher had additional value added to it. Lots of businesses did this - they asked customers to accept a voucher instead of a refund. This would aid their cash flow problems at the start of Covid. To sweeten the offer, an extra amount was added to the voucher. Maybe 10%? Op didn’t say.

With pretty much all these deals, there were conditions. These included that a refund couldn’t later be asked for (the refund was one of the original options) and there were time limits on the deal. So each customer had to weigh up how much they wanted ready cash that could be spent anywhere, how much they liked the look of some extra ‘free’ money on their voucher, and if they wanted to help the business. Lots of people chose refunds because they preferred the certainty of having g the cash in uncertain times and being able to spend it when they chose and where they chose. Others went for the voucher - often because they didn’t need the money right then, felt sorry for the business and also when they were sure they would spend it and benefit from the additional value. Of course all sensible people were careful to be clear on any restrictions upfront. These regularly included time scales and it being clear a cash refund would not be later available.

So yes, OP didn’t originally buy a voucher that has then expired. Originally she out down a deposit for a meal. At the point when the restaurants were unable to honour the booking due to Covid restrictions she had a choice of refund or essentially to buy a voucher with an added amount put on it. She chose the latter, so at that point, yes she did buy a voucher, with all the terms that were attached to it.

I feel pretty sure that retailers who did this and then had customers before the use-by date call them to say there was another lockdown and what could they do, would have been flexible. Some extended by 6 months, some actually offered a refund at that point although there was zero need to, some agreed with further conditions. But of course people had to ask and the sooner they did this, the more likely they we to get a flexible response.

The problem with what people are suggesting is that they seem to think there should be no restriction or limit. Some of people seem to think the restaurant should be infinitely flexible about this. What does this actually mean though…3 years? 5 years? Once you’re beyond a time limit, everything is arbitrary isn’t it. And on that basis, saying ‘no’ the longer after the expiry date, the more understandable it is.

Op didn’t get a Mother’s Day voucher back in 2020. She got a restaurant voucher. It had an expiry date which was close to Mother’s Day the following year. There were numerous options to use it before that. Probably taking a voucherwith a years expiry when you only wanted to attend on a very specific day wasn’t that wise. Op would have been better with the cash for flexibility. After all, who can say if all the family will be available for a Mother’s Day meal the following year or want to go to that location etc etc. But OP chose to tie herself into a specific and limited deal…it was probably the extra value which was added to it that made her choose to do so, as well as helping the business. But it was choice.

Customers cannot have limitless entitlement to change their mind or contravene the terms of deals they knowingly and willingly join up to. Businesses are not unreasonable for sticking to the terms of contracts. This was a whole year after the expiry.

Of course you can always ask. And you can be a bit disappointed. But the question then is, where do you point the finger for the disappointment you feel? Do you accept your own responsibility or blame someone else? Are you even able to take responsibility for your own actions and choices or are you someone who always thinks that others should take the responsibility for what you did? Some people are like that.

When Op made the call or sent the email, she knew that a likely outcome was what happened. It wasn’t really a surmise to her….because she knew she had messed up by not checking the date or calling before the voucher expired. She hoped for favour beyond what she was owed, but she didn’t get it. At that point you have to shrug and say ‘lesson learned’.

Businesses have done a lot of being flexible over the last couple of years. They’ve lost lots of money along the way and they’ve had to make judgement calls about refunds, cancellations, keeping customer loyalty etc etc. Some have run special offers for key workers, seen endless bookings made and cancelled and many have closed. It has been really tough. And so every business has to draw a line somewhere with this stuff. Doing this isn’t unreasonable. Sticking to the agreement that was made isn’t something that warrants an outpouring of social media criticism. It might not be what every other business would do, but that doesn’t make it unlawful and it doesn’t even make it unreasonable. It’s the choice of the business and they are fully within their rights to do this and it is reasonable for them to judge their own circumstances and probably each request individually.

Perhaps if OP wasn’t asking for Mother’s Day or had asked 3 months after the voucher expired, they would have been more flexible. Maybe not…and who knows the business difficulties or situation I’ve the last year. None of us know that ir if the receivers are about to come in and close that business down.

In this scenario all OP could do was ask and hope more favour was given to her than she was due. And on this occasion it wasn’t. She wanted something she wasn’t entitled to and was turned down. It happens and isn’t unreasonable and I think we have to accept that businesses can and have to make those choices sometimes, even when they do t advantage us and we don’t like them. Live and learn.

WombatChocolate · 13/03/2022 13:52

And regarding vouchers, OP did buy a voucher. At the point of being offered a refund, she chose instead to have her money transformed into a voucher. There was an alternative but she chose the voucher with its higher value than the cash she was offered.

A voucher is a promise to provide goods or services within the terms and conditions. All kinds of terms can be applied to vouchers. It isn’t wrong or a breach of the customer- business relationship to reuse to offer goods or decide outside of those terms. One of the terms is a time limit. Regardless or not of whether you believe vouchers should have time limits, they do and can in this country. If you don’t like that, you certainly shouldn’t buy them, but Op did. So, no it wasn’t dishonest of the business to have her £70 and not provide services. Services were available within the timeframe on the voucher, which is what the OP paid for when she turned down the offer of a refund and then chose to buy a voucher instead.

BloodyN0rah · 13/03/2022 13:53

YABU, I had a voucher under similar circumstances and realised I’d let it expire. Given everything businesses have had to cope with I didn’t message them, I just threw it away.

WomanStanleyWoman · 13/03/2022 13:56

The problem with what people are suggesting is that they seem to think there should be no restriction or limit. Some of people seem to think the restaurant should be infinitely flexible about this. What does this actually mean though…3 years? 5 years? Once you’re beyond a time limit, everything is arbitrary isn’t it.

But WHY is it a problem? ‘Boo hoo - someone paid me £70 and now they want something in return, even though it was aaaaages ago!’ It’s pathetic really. The restaurant loses NOTHING by allowing the OP to redeem this voucher. In fact, you could even argue that it’s better for the restaurant they she didn’t redeem it sooner. If the price of their main courses has gone up by even as little as a pound in the last two years, for a party of eight (for example), the voucher is already £8 less valuable to the customer than it was then. Let’s say starters and desserts have gone up by 50p too - a three-course meal for eight now costs £16 more than it did when the original booking was made.

WombatChocolate · 13/03/2022 14:03

Yes, you accept it’s expired and write it off.
No one likes this happening. And I understand £70 is a lot for people….but if it was too much, you’d get you money back as cash, or be very careful to get your value out of it under the terms and conditions.

The annoyance about what’s happened makes me wonder if OP really did take the voucher becaue she was interested in helping the business. If that was the case, and given all that businesses have encountered over the last 2 years, I’d expect the customer to kick themselves for their error, and decide that even asking for it to be honoured well beyond the expiry was an ask too far and just write it off. Many many will have done that.

I wonder how much extra value was given for taking the voucher? It seems to me that this might be what really appealed to OP snd this ‘free money’ won them over and superseded their judgement to take the flexible cash which was offered. As others have said, if the OP really couldn’t afford to lose the £70 and particularly if she was totally j flexible about when to go to the restaurant (it could only be a Mother’s Day) then the choice to accept a voucher was rather daft.

But people enter into all kinds of rather daft contracts that don’t work for them and they later regret. They do it willingly and then it’s both lawful and reasonable for the other side to enforce the terms or if giving elements of flexibility, to draw the line somewhere.