It's a Parking thread!.... can I park in a "parking bay" beyond a double yellow line?

[dramalamma]

I went for a lovely (but potentially expensive!!) coffee with a friend and I parked in what I thought was a parking bay at the end of a series of parking bays (albeit unmarked). In fact I've seen people parked there many times. I'll attach a (very dodgy!) diagram but the curb went around to create a parking bay but the double yellow lines carried on straight for about the width of a car. I wasn't touching the yellow lines - my car was completely beyond the lines and also not on the pavement. I came out to find a ticket. it doesn't feel like it should be a valid PCN but I can't find anything online to support my argument.

I've seen cars parked there before and never noticed them getting ticketed, but have driven past and seen three ticketed cars in the last week so I'm wondering if the redcoats have just decided that it's ripe pickings and that people won't bother to appeal.

AIBU to think this isn't a valid PCN and I should challenge it or should I suck it up and pay the fine? (YABU - pay up, YANBU - challenge it... preferably pointing me towards some precedent!)

You had to go through the double yellows to park?

So it isn't marked as a parking bay and it has yellow lines that you had to cross to park? That should tell you that your ticket is a valid PCN then

Yes - I did have to drive over the lines to park. Does that make it illegal? I can totally see I can't park where the yellow lines are - at right angles to where I am parked -
but in a bay at the end of a long line of (legally) parked cars it feels wrong that I can't - am willing to be told if IBU tho!

I wonder if you aren't meant to park there because of the "gate" you've marked.

but in a bay at the end of a long line of (legally) parked cars

It wasn't a bay though. You said they are unmarked.

I think because it's not a marked parking bay and you've had to cross double yellows to get to it that yabu and are liable for the ticket. Is it council issued?

Cars being parked there before and not gotten a ticket isn't really a valid argument as it's just your luck really if there's a ticket person going around at the time.

I may be wrong though as I'm not 100% of the legalities but I don't think you'd get far with an appeal

@SoupDragon

I wonder if you aren't meant to park there because of the "gate" you've marked.

And this!

I can see that the gate could be an issue but I'm actually parked even further away from the gate than I've marked - it's probably a good car's width between me and the gates - so two cars width between the gate and the end of the yellow lines

It isn't marked - that's correct - and there are no signs. But it's always been a parking area used and ignored by the enforcers (though I can't be sure about the place I actually parked).

Yeah I'm fairly certain that since you've crossed double yellows to park there and it's not in a marked bay then it is a valid ticket.

That said, round here we have some double width pavements with double yellow lines on the road and people will fully park their car on the path behind the lines and don't get tickets.

So is it right that double yellow lines don't have to be along the curb they relate to? I'm genuinely curious here and no amount of googling is bringing up the info so I'm coming to the wise women of Mumsnet...... It does sound like IABU.... To be brutally honest I didn't even notice the yellow lines they were so far from the curb! (not that that's an excuse). Admittedly I've never parked there before but I've seen a lot of cars parked there and it's a very heavily enforced area because it's between two schools.

I'm usually such a conscientious Parker too!

But it's always been a parking area used and ignored by the enforcers (though I can't be sure about the place I actually parked).

It is only the place you are actually parked that is relevant though. The other spaces have no bearing on whether you should parked where you did.

Is the gate for vehicular access? If so, there is probably clearance space where you aren't meant to park.

Query it nicely
See what happens. Especially if it’s not clear.

www.drivingtesttips.biz/double-yellow-lines.html

This source isn't great but this probably applies even though you weren't on pavement Parking on the pavement has its own potential issues, those aside, whether you want to park behind double yellow lines, the other side of them, whether there's a pavement or a grass verge, the answer is no, it's illegal.

That link says parking on the other side of yellow lines is illegal

I would say this area is clearance for the gate and not a parking space so YABU.

Also, were there any lines on the kerb to indicate no loading/waiting?

From the Highway Code

1. Waiting and parking (238)

238 You MUST NOT wait or park on yellow lines during the times of operation shown on nearby time plates (or zone entry signs if in a Controlled Parking Zone) – download ‘Traffic signs’ and ‘Road markings’. Double yellow lines indicate a prohibition of waiting at any time even if there are no upright signs. You MUST NOT wait or park, or stop to set down and pick up passengers, on school entrance markings when upright signs indicate a prohibition of stopping.
Law RTRA sects 5 & 8

You were on the double yellow lines even though you were the other side of them. You were not in a marked bay. The double yellow lines don't just have one side IYSWIM.

@dramalamma

Yes - I did have to drive over the lines to park. Does that make it illegal? I can totally see I can't park where the yellow lines are - at right angles to where I am parked - but in a bay at the end of a long line of (legally) parked cars it feels wrong that I can't - am willing to be told if IBU tho!

Put it like this - if there are double yellow lines on the street, would you park on the non road side? What’s the gate for? What did the parking signs on the lampposts say?

Yellow lines apply to the boundary line, so if you parked on the footpath beside standard double yellow lines (driving "across the lines") those lines would still be in force for the footpath. This is the same situation as that. Unfortunately your ticket is valid

I do hear what you're saying but it still doesn't make logical sense to me that the lines can be as far away as they like from the curb to which they relate - I mean when does that stop - how many metres? I have googled and can't find the answer!
No signs on the lamppost - nothing to indicate whether you can park or not in the whole bay except for the lines which I didn't even notice until I came back to my car.
I think I will challenge nicely and see what happens as one op said - thank you.

do double yellow lines have to accompany the curb though?

I do hear what you're saying but it still doesn't make logical sense to me that the lines can be as far away as they like from the curb to which they relate - I mean when does that stop - how many metres? I have googled and can't find the answer!

You were parked end on to the lines 🤷🏻‍♀️

@dramalamma
If you are going to challenge a ticket, I would take photos of the area and any signage, and get advice from one of the free fb parking appeal groups - their admin often will help you write your appeal if you have grounds to.

Is it a council parking PCN?

www.facebook.com/groups/CouncilParkingPCNsFreeAdvice/?ref=share