It's a Parking thread!.... can I park in a "parking bay" beyond a double yellow line?

[dramalamma]

I went for a lovely (but potentially expensive!!) coffee with a friend and I parked in what I thought was a parking bay at the end of a series of parking bays (albeit unmarked). In fact I've seen people parked there many times. I'll attach a (very dodgy!) diagram but the curb went around to create a parking bay but the double yellow lines carried on straight for about the width of a car. I wasn't touching the yellow lines - my car was completely beyond the lines and also not on the pavement. I came out to find a ticket. it doesn't feel like it should be a valid PCN but I can't find anything online to support my argument.

I've seen cars parked there before and never noticed them getting ticketed, but have driven past and seen three ticketed cars in the last week so I'm wondering if the redcoats have just decided that it's ripe pickings and that people won't bother to appeal.

AIBU to think this isn't a valid PCN and I should challenge it or should I suck it up and pay the fine? (YABU - pay up, YANBU - challenge it... preferably pointing me towards some precedent!)

Yes it's council

It’s definitely worth appealing, particularly if you haven’t had a ticket before. My local council lets everyone off for their first appeal.
As you’re not actually parked on the double yellows you could argue that it was ambiguous and hope for leniency.

I also looked it up OP

www.drivingtesttips.biz/double-yellow-lines.html?amp

"CAN YOU PARK ON THE PAVEMENT NEXT TO DOUBLE YELLOW LINES
That’s quite a common question, or ‘parking on verge, or the other side next to double yellow lines‘. Parking on the pavement has its own potential issues, those aside, whether you want to park behind double yellow lines, the other side of them, whether there’s a pavement or a grass verge, the answer is no, it’s illegal.
Waiting restrictions apply from the centre of the carriageway to the back of the pavement (building line). Even if it’s a seemingly harmless grass verge, you’ll still get ticketed as it’s council property."
So you can appeal and ask a fb group to help you , or just ask for advice .

Or you can pay the PCN which is usually £70 (?) with 50% reduction if paid within 14 days.

Hmm, from the diagram I'd say that's not entirely clear. We have something like this where I live and I would not know how to read it. Maybe you live in my town!

I know it's not a pavement. There isn't anything for "area next to road that looks like road but isn't"

Definitely ask the council parking PCNs fb group as they are very experienced and let us know what they say! (You have to join the group but that's just so the admin can throw out people breaking rules on their page. )

This guy seemed to come upon a similar situation back in 2009 and managed to appeal forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t37866.html

BTW it's kerb, not curb. I know that's not helpful

Interesting. I regularly park in a bay (along with lots of other cars) that has double yellow lines along the road that need to be crossed to get into the bay. When Traffic Wardens have been round they have ticketed people parked on the pavement, or on the road where the lines are but not the cars parked in the bay. A couple of times someone parked in the bay but hanging over the lines has been ticketed but that seems to depend on the mood of the traffic warden on the day. I've never known anyone in the bay, within the lines, to get a ticket. There are no signs or markings in the bay to show it is for parking.

I regularly park in a bay (along with lots of other cars) that has double yellow lines along the road that need to be crossed to get into the bay.

The OP wasn't in a marked bay.

Double yellow lines don’t have to be along the kerb i don’t think. Certainly I frequently see near me cars parked on a verge where there are double yellow lines and they get tickets. So similar to you they have crossed the double yellow lines. The double yellow lines apply to both sides of the double yellow line in any area of public highway and the verge counts as highway. Tourists think they’re being smart by parking on the grass but most days in summer 30-50 people get tickets!

My mum successfully appealed once because there was no “stop end” to the double yellow lines so that’s worth checking!

it still doesn't make logical sense to me that the lines can be as far away as they like from the curb to which they relate - I mean when does that stop - how many metres? I have googled and can't find the answer!

Somebody a few posts above has just posted a quote of the bit from the link that I was going to draw you attention. When there are double yellow lines, apparently they apply from the centre of the road right up the building (in this case fence or gate.) In other words, when there's a yellow line that overlaps with where your car is, along the length of the road, then the line applies. (Unless you are actually on the opposite side of the road.)

(I did not know this either.)

It's worth popping into the cafe, explaining and asking what the deal is with the end space. I know it's a bit awkward but it's worth doing.

[quote haggisaggis]This guy seemed to come upon a similar situation back in 2009 and managed to appeal forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t37866.html[/quote]
This is genius. On peppipoo and is very relevant to OPs situation .
Read through the final part - where he has copied the judge's summing up and acceptance of his appeal.

[quote Ikeptgoing]@dramalamma
If you are going to challenge a ticket, I would take photos of the area and any signage, and get advice from one of the free fb parking appeal groups - their admin often will help you write your appeal if you have grounds to.

Is it a council parking PCN?

www.facebook.com/groups/CouncilParkingPCNsFreeAdvice/?ref=share
[/quote]
Second this group. There’s a chap on there called Harvey Angel that’s really good with council PCNs.

This is genius. On peppipoo and is very relevant to OPs situation .
Read through the final part - where he has copied the judge's summing up and acceptance of his appeal.

The potential problem with that is that it refers to the Traffic
Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 which seem to have been revised in 2016.

What is the bay for then

Very strange positioning of yellow lines, I think they should always be on edge of road, close to the kerb.
I suspect its a valid ticket sadly and you've been unlucky as I can see why people would park there.

@Bellringer

What is the bay for then

There is no bay, it's just a gap. The OP has said it's not a marked parking bay

This is interesting, because locally to me, there is an actual car park, and some garages with space to park outside the doors, all along side the road, and all behind double yellows!

I suppose (in my town) it might be that the council don't own the bit behind the yellow lines - but it's all one lot of tarmac, no join marks even.

So I looked up the regs. First bit I marked is the 'from the centre to the building line' bit.. But then... The second bit I've marked is rather interesting OP. It says lines should be at the back of the lay by - precisely to avoid the confusion you've found yourself in.

@soupdragon
Have read through the 2016 amendments and can't see anything that undermines that peppiipoo judges summation. Can you? (Below)

Looks to me that amendments strengthen it as it lists signage and markings that are required

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/contents/made