to feel angry and upset over a charity Chritsmas Box being sent to kids who are NOT needy...

[PrincessSnowLife]

As some of you may know, I am british and live in Bosnia.

My DS (4) just came home from school today beaming because he'd been given a big box of presents. All the kids had been given one. Lovely thought. On closer inspection though I have found that this is a Christmas box sent out by a certain christian charity in the UK. Now, I have nothing against these boxes, I think they are a very kind of people and a great way of getting kids to think of others in less fortunate positions...

HOWEVER I feel extremely uncomfortable with this gesture for the following reasons:

• the nursery school is a private one, and knowing the parents that send their kids there, the families are far from needy, and are in fact quite well off. These kids definitely don't fit the criteria being described on the charity's website.

• the content was very thoughtful (pens, sweets, soap, craft stuff, a cuddly toy, even a roll of blank paper to draw on) but nothing that kids here, even those with less well-off families, couldn't get hold of cheaply... Kids here, rich or poor, are spolit (in the nicest sense of the word) and don't really lack stuff like this. I know that this is just a matter of someone in the charity not knowing the reality of a country like this, of the availability and pricing of children's things, but it makes me feel very bad for the child that sent it.

• ironically, the label on the box is bilingual (welsh english) suggesting it was sent by a child in wales... which is where I am from... she may even be from the same town for all I know... which would make it ever so sad and ironic. There is a photo of the little girl in the box, with her name and age on the back, and I feel really really upset on her behalf that all the effort she has gone to has been misplaced.

• some of the content was definitely Christmas-ey... and sent to a school where probably 90% are muslim. This is not a country/area where anybody would be angry about this, or even slightly annoyed, but it was a bit careless of the ditributor(s), I think.

I am assuming that there is a communication or corruption problem somewhere along the route between the christmas box drop-off centre and the final destination. There are needy kids in Bosnia, war orphans for example, but it is not a desperately poor country like many others in the world... and the war ended 13 years ago, life is peaceful, normal, and despite the usual everyday whinging about the price of bread or whatever, it is really not a poor or difficult country to live in (scuse the grammar...got to post this quickly before going off to work ).

As an immediate thought, we want to send something nice to the little girl in the photo or offer to help the school send a thank you to all the kids over there that sent these things. Sadly, not sure if the charity will give us the details though since it could highlight a mistake.

We are definitely not going to keep the gifts. We will find a way of passing them on to kids that need them more than our DS, or who at least got fewer presents than he did for Eid/XMas!! (the grandparents visited and he got thoroughly spolit!!).

I also really think the charity should be told where these boxes end up. Hopefully this is the only batch that didn't reach needy children.

Oh, and this is not because my son has received charity (although I can imagine that some of the other parents will be mightily miffed by that!).

Ah. Rant over. Thanks for following. So AIBU? I feel so angry for the little girl.

sabaidii, do you know the names of any charities working in Laos which are reliable?

Just to update. A very detailed, and sternly polite () email has been sent to them. I can almost hear them squirming...

Will let you all know what response I get.

I just had to reply to this! I have family and friends in Serbia and Kosovo and really people outside of these countries think there is still poverty in the Balkans so many years after the conflict ended. Even the poorest families I know wouldn't be in need of charity as they lead fairly comfortable lives and the children get what they need! Slighty off topic there, sorry I know of a few childrens homes and institutions where the boxes would be welcomed with open arms by extremely grateful children. Sounds like bad distribution management to me! Do let us know what their reply is PSL!

My nanna (shes only 60), and a group of her friends fill shoebox's all year! Shes retired, and spends all her free time going round car boots, and cash and carry's buying things in massive bulk - ie, 100's of toothbrushes, cheap towels which the cut up and re-sow into flannels, and all sorts. Between her and her friends, they do 100's every year and really enjoy it.
She'd be devestated if she thought these things were going to children / elderly that didnt really need them!
However, I think these boxes go to very poor / war affected areas, and they arnt allowed to send any sweets, in case us English are putting something in the food

Exactly what I tried explaining to them in the email, Lola. This is either a case of different definitions of poverty or of people being genuinely misinformed about conditions in eastern Europe. Not off topic at all.

Problem is, often enough the only time people in the UK hear about countries like Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, it is in the context of something dramatic happening or showing the worst parts. Fine, that's what news is... but it leaves people, and perhaps charities, with a very skewed view of everyday life here.

Anyway rant over.

That's really lovely of your nanna. And she shouldn't stop doing it. As long as everyone who does it hassles talks with the charities to make sure they take the gifts to the right people.

Yes they see it all on euronews, don't they when a one-off protest has kicked off then they think that is how it is everyday! Someone I know earns just 70euro a month but because things are so cheap and readily available there her boy has everything (and probably more) than a child in the UK has, he has a fab education and they eat like kings everynight and they have a perfectly nice, normal house! If you go walking down the street there are a few homeless people begging and who come round the cafe's and bars selling their lighters or chewing gum but it's no different really than someone in the UK on the street begging or selling the Big Issue.

Could it be [long shot here] that they had excess & this was given to your ds's school?

that's what I am hoping, sandcastles

will wait and see what they say

tiktok's article won't open now, I don't know if that's a Guardian website problem (they have been having a lot lately) or if it has been pulled - however this one is still there and I remember seeing it before on a thread about OCC/SP (it often comes up on here before Christmas)

Surplus or not, it sounds as if it shouldn't have gone anywhere near your school, PSL, even if a few of the children might be more "needy" than yours - they are clearly not "victims of war, poverty, famine, disease, and natural disaster"

I bet they would never have thought in a million years that a British person would be on the receiving end of one of those boxes. I think this misdistribution should be more widely reported - is Lord Venger around?

As it happens, letting the press know was the first thing my father suggested, especialy because of the coincidence of a box with a bilingual label arriving at a welsh-speaking home in bosnia... chances are quite slim! Am giving them a chance to reply first before considering that though. Mind that, telling MN is close enough!!

Off to look at your article now.

Wendy, thanks for that link. Excellent article.

"Instead, why not support Christian Aid, which works wherever the need and regardless of religion. Its current campaigns include working with HIV/Aids orphans in Kenya, recycling guns in Mozambique, and highlighting the impact of world trade rules on farmers in Ghana. Sure, we will need to have some rather grown-up conversations with our children if we are to explain some of these things. But that would be time better spent than wrapping up a shoebox. We must get over our fondness for charity and develop a thirst for justice."

Who can argue with that?

Is this the only organisation doing shoeboxes? or is there anyone else?

Hi, I'm really interested in this as I tried to raise awareness about it here in Ireland when I discovered what SP were actually doing with the boxes. We were doing it in the school where I teach but we pulled out as a result of these discoveries. I went on national radio to talk about it and a representative from SP came on and denied everything. He lied outright about certain aspects of the organisation's work and tried to distance the organisation from Franklin Graham. However, when I had earlier contacted the same office, I had been told that they were closely affiliated with Graham and that he was, indeed, their CEO. On national radio, however, the representative, did everything he could to make the organisation sound whiter than white. After the show went out, SP threatened the radio station with legal action if they did not retract everything negative that was said about them on air, and they wanted my name (I used a false name on air) to threaten me with the same. They are a nasty group who try to stamp on anyone who stands in their way - I have since learned that this is how they deal with anyone who speaks out publicly against them. I would advise you, PrincessSnowLife to be very careful how you tread with this. I am not easily intimidated , but this is not an organisation that you want to aggravate. If you decide to go to the national media, and I firmly believe that people must make a stand against groups like this, I suggest you avoid linking yourself with the information. Believe me, I'm not alarmist, but this organisation's main aim is to rid the world of Islam (Franklin Graham has repeatedly said this) and they will do whatever is necessary in that endeavour, which they believe is their mission from God. Not only that but they are using the charity of good people and innocent children to do it. I am horrified to discover that on top of that, the boxes may not even be going to needy children at all, Muslim or otherwise! Glad, however, to see that there are other like-minded people out there who care that this stuff is going on.

that's terrible. i can't believe the 'charity' involved, if you can call them that, have failed to do their research and just basically wasted the time of thousands of kids and parents preparing boxes for other kids in a country which is now peaceful, relatively well-off and secure. i mean what bothers me is that i had to sit through one of their godawful presentations at our local church about how we would be 'putting our heart ina box' and giving to those who have nothing. Wonderful idea, but only if they actually deliver them to the places which need them. Sheer american christian-coalition ignorance.

anyone ever tried to organise the distribution of a million items? Or even a mere 50,000 or so? Sometimes mistakes get made. Of course they should be pointed out to the charity concerned but does anyone really think there is a perfect way of distributing help or a charity that doesn't make a mistake now and then?

I find it quite interesting that despite all the comments made no Christian literature was in the box - or presumably provided alongside it? Some items were Christmassey - religious Christmassey or robins and tinsel? Religious items should not be allowed through but what exactly was let through?

We also use this as a way of helping children appreciate that others may have less than them and that they can do something about it. I wish instead of the constant carping some organisation would come up with a way of mobilising that good will. Schools could link to another school -I remember joining a scheme once that redistributed childrens books (in good condition, tatty ones sold or scrapped). Some people LIKE to give items, not cash, and charities need to draw on that.

I suggest those of you who dislike your schools doing this encourage them to do something like Oxfams buy meals for schoolchildren or the library gift I got for Christmas - but don't be surprised when it produces far less for the achrity.

Interesting- do look at this Franklin Graham is here as a board memeber, the mission statement is there including their 'evangelical' stance.

I for one will not be supporting this ever again and TBH I am planning to discuss this with our local school.

Thanks for your post LibertyLady. Well done for your efforts but sorry to hear that they tried to bully you. Will definitely definitely bear your comments in mind. If no-one ever hears form me ever again then at least I have this thread here to show a trail of evidence ...

As an update for all - I got a reply from them yesterday. It was very management-speak and 'safe', iykwim, and they have said that they will bear my experience in mind for training purposes in future. They have asked for details of the school so that they can contact their local partner.

I understand your frustration at the thread Tatt but I hope you can also understand that it is something which has to be mentioned to the charity. I am sure that it is a big job to organise distribution of 1.2 million boxes and that mistakes sometimes happen. As I've said up the thread somewhere, I sincerely hope that this batch was the only one that went to the wrong place.

Another update. They can't tell me who their local distribution partner is yet because by the sounds of it there is only one person in the whole organisation that knows and he is overseas for a few weeks.

Ah well. I can be patient...

PrincessSnowLife - I think I heard you on the radio a while back. Was it on GR? You'd done your research well and even though the rep was denying affiliations you still came off well. I can't believe they then tried to threaten you afterwards.

sorry I mean to say Libertylady not PrincessSnowLife.

PrincessSnowLife I do not want boxes going to children who do not need them any more than you do. I am sure there are a lot of children who would benefit and didn't get them. And I have no problem with people getting their schools to give money in other ways, even if that produces less money. I am very interested in the reply you get - and in what exactly was in the box that was "Christmassey". But I'm also equally interested to know that despite all the allegations that Christian literature is put in the boxes you didn't get any - and presumably no-one tried to use the box to "convert" your child either?

What frustrates me is first that charities do not draw on all the ways they have to help people in need. People like to donate items and they like to link to a small scheme where they can see the benefit - but very few schemes make use of either spur to giving.

I am reluctant to give too much detail about the content of the box, Tatt, for one reason only: what if by some other bizarre coincidence the mother of the little girl who sent out box is following this thread? Then she would find out and possibly be very disappointed that her box didn't get to a needy child. I really hope you don't mind but you'll just have to trust my judgement on this, that the 'Christmassey' items in the box could only have been perceived by people here as being related to Christmas.

I think I mentioned further up the thread tht there was no Christian literature in the box and nothing given out at school. So no worries there. Can't find where/who in the thread there was reference to that... but then I am all bleary-eyed after work now so it's probably just me!

I know what you're saying. It's tough trying to get the right balance between how the giver feels at the point of giving and how much a charity gains and is able to pass on to those who need it.

I think they have been investigated and I wouldn't do it (although my kids school does it every year despite complaints and concerns from parents), there are other charities that work in a completely non denominational way, I'd rather give my money to a recognised development charity who know that giving stuff to children at christmas isn't always the best way to help them.

PrincesSnowLife what I'm interested in is whether the "Christmassey" items were in any way religious. You've mentioned quite a bit about the box already and I really don't think saying whether they included anything such as wise men, shepherds, madonna and child or just robins, crackers and Christmas trees is giving much away. One lot are obviously religious and the others may relate to Christmas but are clearly not. I think if it was one of my boxes I'd recognise it already. Simple question though - they were "christmasey" but were they religious?

Are you getting annoyed with me Tatt? I know it is always difficult to tell in this medium but it is sounding that way now... Hope not since I have no malicious intentions towards the charity...

I still don't want to answer the question though, sorry, for the same reasons as above. I haven't given away enough information about the contents so far for anyone to be sure that it was their box. By describing the Christmassey items I would be giving enough detail for the content to be recognisable. I hope it is enough to say that the christmassey items would be perceived by people here as linked to the religious festival of Christmas. It is not like in the UK where the religious boundaries are a bit blurred and you could send a Christmas card to your neighbour who is not a Christian only as a gesture of friendliness an goodwill. Here, although people of different religions live side by side and are friends, it would not be the done thing (i.e. understood or appreciated) to give a muslim a card or gift on the 7th of Jan, or to give a catholic an Eid gift, or to wish an Orthodox a happy Christmas in December. And so symbols like christmas trees, stars, pictures of baby jesus in the manger, and so on would be most definitely something seen as significant only for a christian. I hope that makes sense.