Page 2 | Shop saying I'll be self employed

Amiselfemployeed · 2022-03-01T17:19:08+00:00

Posting here for traffic, hoping someone can help. I've been offered a job in a shoe shop in my town. Independent shop, not a chain. It's super convenient for me, the only thing is the owner said I would be self employed. I'm a bit confused because this doesn't sound right to me, my hours and pay are set - not chosen by me. So it seems like I'm an employee just without the benefits such as holiday & pension? Can anyone help weigh in on this? I'm a bit confused

ComDummings · 03/03/2022 18:10

Definitely inform HMRC, cheeky lazy bastards

GallopingHighRoad · 03/03/2022 18:12

@FAQs

That’ll be against IR35 rules! Report them.

IR35 affects companies only.

merrymouse · 03/03/2022 18:13

Don’t know why they are bothering to pay minimum wage if they aren’t bothering with other parts of employment law!

Original poster

Amiselfemployeed · 03/03/2022 18:14

How do I report them?
On HMRC website it gives me the option to complain about a company and gives the following options:
Fraud or scam
A faulty product or service
You're owed money
Tax evasion
Financial harm to customers or suppliers

I don't know what this would come under?

OP posts:

nonevernotever · 03/03/2022 18:22

Tax evasion maybe?

SolasAnla · 03/03/2022 18:51

Factually under Tax evasion option.
( Its by default also money laundering).

They are evading payroll tax and employer costs.
HMRC likes these type of reports as illegal employee contracts tend to lead to tax evasion schemes crossing other tax classes as the employer has to disguise the payments

Something like :

The owners have informed you that they have paid people who as far as you can understand should actually be classed as employees.
They are currently offering you employment with an hourly rate payments at minimum wage rates but these would be without deducting tax and NI.

ANameChangeAgain · 03/03/2022 18:52

If they are saying they are going to pay you as a self employed person, it means that you will have to submit a monthly invoice and sort your own tax affairs. Either this, or they will employ you through an umbrella company and they submit your hours to the company and this company will pay yoru wages. What they are doing, if they are doing it properly, won't be illegal but it does mean that you won't have any employment rights as you are classed as a subcontract worker, or external worker, rather than an employee. They will need you to provide your tax number to prove that you are declaring your income to HMRC. Sometimes it works that you pay less tax if you are self employed, because you can claim for travel expenses, phone use, work clothing, lunch, partial use of you home expenses etc. In your case though it sounds as though they just want cheap, low commitment labour.

Crimesean · 03/03/2022 20:00

The correct/simplest category is tax evasion.

Crimesean · 03/03/2022 20:02

@ANameChangeAgain

If they are saying they are going to pay you as a self employed person, it means that you will have to submit a monthly invoice and sort your own tax affairs. Either this, or they will employ you through an umbrella company and they submit your hours to the company and this company will pay yoru wages. What they are doing, if they are doing it properly, won't be illegal but it does mean that you won't have any employment rights as you are classed as a subcontract worker, or external worker, rather than an employee. They will need you to provide your tax number to prove that you are declaring your income to HMRC. Sometimes it works that you pay less tax if you are self employed, because you can claim for travel expenses, phone use, work clothing, lunch, partial use of you home expenses etc. In your case though it sounds as though they just want cheap, low commitment labour.

That is incorrect advice, please disregard this OP.

Employing you like this is absolutely against the law - you are not a private contractor, you are a direct employee.

belleoftheball1 · 03/03/2022 20:07

You want HMRC employer compliance/status team.

Ohmnomnom · 03/03/2022 20:08

Why is it illegal for a retail shop to employ people on a self-employed basis, but not for companies like deliveroo, maid2clean, etc?

belleoftheball1 · 03/03/2022 20:09

0300 123 2326 - is the number you’re looking for.

I work for compliance in HMRC (not employer compliance or status team) but give that number a go.

SpikeySmooth · 03/03/2022 20:14

CFs. I'd walk away. Dodgy as hell.

nancy75 · 03/03/2022 21:11

@Ohmnomnom

Why is it illegal for a retail shop to employ people on a self-employed basis, but not for companies like deliveroo, maid2clean, etc?

Because people working for Deliveroo get a choice in when they work - they can choose just to do Friday & Saturday nights because that’s when they make the most money. If they don’t want to work one Friday night they can choose to stay at home. If you work in a shop you are told your hours, you can’t decide and you also can’t send someone ride to do those hours in your place.

nancy75 · 03/03/2022 21:14

Same with jobs like cab driver - they can say no to the £4 fare because they’re waiting for an airport run, if they’ve had enough for the day they can go home.

ANameChangeAgain · 03/03/2022 21:19

@Crimesean
That is incorrect advice, please disregard this OP.
If you read my post correctly you will find it is correct and legal. Certainly not for long term staff, but I've employed people this way.

SmugOldBag · 04/03/2022 01:11

Fairly sure that there's a purpose test from a legal and HMRC perspective.

If you are perceived as a employee (given set hours, paid hourly by a company) then you are an employee irrespective of what they say.

It's dodgy as hell

WiddlinDiddlin · 04/03/2022 05:00

I work for a company that owns an app..

I am a self employed contractor -

We sort out our own rota, we sorted out how long our shifts would be, we negotiated how much we'd work for, and we have rejiggled all this several times over the last two years as the role has grown and altered.
We have gone through several tests to see if we are indeed self employed - we are.

We work from home, we supply our own equipment, we can swap shifts with one another without having to check with anyone higher up, we can take time off as necessary.

We are also paid considerably more than min. wage, which we invoice for each month.

That is what self employed but working for a larger company really looks like. This is absolutely not that.

I'd try and get some paperwork out of them if you can, but either way.. report the hell out of this.

BarbaraofSeville · 04/03/2022 06:24

@Ohmnomnom

Why is it illegal for a retail shop to employ people on a self-employed basis, but not for companies like deliveroo, maid2clean, etc?

While the likes of Deliveroo etc like to argue that their workers are self employed, it's a bit of a grey area and not particularly fair on the workers, who take all the risk and often don't earn NMW. There have been court cases and appeals etc.

Workers are generally exploited in these types of businesses and there should be a lot more outrage about how badly they're treated, but customers like being able to tap an app and have takeaways magically appear at their door to care.

On the OP, that's outrageous and they're likely to be breaching tax and NMW law, because for the latter, your basic expectation is that you are paid NMW and get at least the minimum holiday allowance, pension contributions and if relevant, sick pay and statutory redundancy.

For you to be self employed, which you wouldn't be for shop work anyway, you'd need to be paid a substantially higher hourly rate to compensate for the lack of employment rights.

Perhaps call their bluff. Tell them that you agree to be self employed and your rate is £20 ph. Plus you won't be available during weeks A, B, C and D, any BHs or between Christmas and New Year because, as a SE person, you have elected to not work as those times, as is your right.

RedRobin100 · 04/03/2022 06:27

Fuck that!

Have they not heard of IR35..?!

Aprilx · 04/03/2022 06:32

@Amiselfemployeed

Had a follow up today and you guessed right, it is minimum wage. When I questioned why this was a self employed position, they said they ran a business before and employed people but doing the tax, ni pension etc was too much hassle.

Minimum wage applies to employees, not self employed as self employed are paid a fee for services not a wage. So they are happy to follow that bit of law because it suits them. They are breaking the law, I would keep on looking.

Aprilx · 04/03/2022 06:35

[quote ANameChangeAgain]@Crimesean
That is incorrect advice, please disregard this OP.
If you read my post correctly you will find it is correct and legal. Certainly not for long term staff, but I've employed people this way.[/quote]
Your post was incorrect in almost every way.

Because you have done things this way does not make it legal, it makes it that you have been breaking the law.

ANameChangeAgain · 04/03/2022 06:58

@Aprilx we'll agree to disagree, I'm not getting into the pantome argument about this. If done properly I'm certainly not breaking the law.

CarrieHughes · 04/03/2022 07:05

@BarbaraofSeville hmm 50/50.
The whole point of ‘gig’ contracts was a way to make extra money. The service isn’t guaranteed either (it’s common in certain areas to have NO riders, or even Uber drivers at certain times of the day).
Uber whoever puts lots of pressure on drivers to accept jobs etc hence it could be argued they’re behaving like an employer. Don’t think Deliveroo does.

Thé real issue is that there are too many low wage jobs - which is why people have been doing ‘gig’ work FT. Which was never the plan. If less people work for them they’ll just close down which isn’t a bad thing!

DobbyTheHouseElk · 04/03/2022 07:07

Totally illegal. Report them. Yes, tax evasion is the right thing to select.

There are all sorts of rules about hidden employment now, but this is old school tax evasion.

They aren’t even trying to hide what they are doing. Really shocking.