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AIBU?

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Original poster

Trying to find legal status of a sports club

40 replies

tripodd · 25/02/2022 23:06

My DC's have been a member of a local sports club for several years. It is run by a committee and has an AGM each year where they present accounts, but they don't seem to be registered with either Companies House or the Charity Commission. If I want to find out their status (to help me resolve a potential issue) is there somewhere else to look? They are recognised by the sport's national governing body as a club, so presumably they have some sort of valid constitutional status.

OP posts:
Wigeon · 25/02/2022 23:15

If their income is under £5000 a year, they wouldn’t have to register with the charity commission and you wouldn’t be able to find anything online about them.

Does their website say they are a charity? (If they have a website!)

Can you ask them/ask one of the committee?

Why will knowing their status help you resolve the issue?

Original poster
tripodd · 25/02/2022 23:22

Their website doesn't say they are a charity or anything else. They describe themselves anecdotally as not for profit. Knowing their status will help me, so I can look up the relevant rules in relation to the issue in question.

They do have an income of more than £5k.

OP posts:
TheFoldOx · 25/02/2022 23:23

Have you checked the Community Amateur Sports Club register? www.gov.uk/government/publications/community-amateur-sports-clubs-casc-registered-with-hmrc--2. More likely that Companies House or the Charity Commission.

Justkeeppedaling · 25/02/2022 23:34

They may operate under the governing body's charitable status

That's how Guiding works - individual units aren't charities in their own right - they use GG's charity status for things like claiming tax back on subs.

Original poster
tripodd · 25/02/2022 23:44

@TheFoldOx

Have you checked the Community Amateur Sports Club register? www.gov.uk/government/publications/community-amateur-sports-clubs-casc-registered-with-hmrc--2. More likely that Companies House or the Charity Commission.
Thanks..They're not on the list. Confused
OP posts:
SlipperyLizard · 25/02/2022 23:46

If it is a sports club it may be an “unincorporated association”, which means it has no legal “personality” of its own (so not like a company) and won’t be registered anywhere.

oviraptor21 · 25/02/2022 23:53

As an elected officer of a sports club that has an income of over £5000 but is not a charity, I'd say it will depend on whether the organisation is affiliated to a national or regional governing body.
If it isn't then any action you may wish to take would be against the members of the management committe.
This www.resourcecentre.org.uk/information/legal-structures-for-community-and-voluntary-groups/ gives some more info about possible structures.

Original poster
tripodd · 26/02/2022 00:11

Thanks, I'm just trying to line up some facts because my son was asked to help with coaching, at below minimum wage, but when he queried it he was told it's a voluntary role. Apparently some of the coaches are paid and some not but it all seems to be a bit ad hoc, with no role descriptions or clarity.

OP posts:
oviraptor21 · 26/02/2022 00:16

Does this help
www.hse.gov.uk/entertainment/leisure/amateur-sports-club.htm

Original poster
tripodd · 26/02/2022 08:14

Thanks oviraptor. I've managed to clarify that the club is accredited under the national governing body's and Sport England's "clubmark" scheme. I've managed to find policies and procedures on their website, but no constitution yet.

It began as a small club run by very dedicated volunteers (giving up many hours for free) with volunteer coaches, but has grown to a much larger club with many junior training sessions and squads. It's in the club's interest to develop these squads for love of the sport, and they also bring in revenue for the club, to pay for equipment, new kit, and to offset the expenses of the adult teams (which travel round the country in minibuses and sometimes have to stay over in hotels). To sustain the growth, the club has at some point begun to pay hourly (for regular coaching) or daily (for holiday camps) rate to its coaches. My understanding is that this is ok from HMRC's perspective if they're classed as "workers", but if they're "volunteers" then the club can only pay reasonable expenses. If they are "workers", then employment rules apply and they need to pay minimum wage. I don't think there is any middle ground is there?

The voluntary committee that run the club do give up many hours of their time on admin for free, so pointing out to them that they may need to be talking to HMRC about how they pay their "volunteers" won't go down well at all. For now, I just want to get my facts straight, so I can decide whether to say something.

OP posts:
MichelleScarn · 26/02/2022 08:19

Will the coaches not have to be registered both with the training body and have disclosures? Id that the difference rather than a volunteer who is 'helping' a coach?
Would your son be expected to plan, organise and run a session including the communication with parents etc, without input from anyone else?

McT123 · 26/02/2022 08:29

The "middle ground" is that the coaches are self employed and invoice the sports club. My club has the exact same set up, most people involved are volunteers but a small number of qualified coaches are paid.
It is highly unlikely that your children will be classed as employees and therefore minimum wage is largely irrelevant.

thanktor · 26/02/2022 08:31

They are probably registered for tax purposes under this

thanktor · 26/02/2022 08:31

www.cascinfo.co.uk/

Original poster
tripodd · 26/02/2022 08:39

@McT123

The "middle ground" is that the coaches are self employed and invoice the sports club. My club has the exact same set up, most people involved are volunteers but a small number of qualified coaches are paid. It is highly unlikely that your children will be classed as employees and therefore minimum wage is largely irrelevant.
Why is that 'highly unlikely'? He is 18 and is qualified as an assistant coach. The offer was made to him on the basis of it being an 'assistant coach' role.
OP posts:
Original poster
tripodd · 26/02/2022 09:09

@MichelleScarn

Will the coaches not have to be registered both with the training body and have disclosures? Id that the difference rather than a volunteer who is 'helping' a coach? Would your son be expected to plan, organise and run a session including the communication with parents etc, without input from anyone else?
He is registered with the training body and does have a DBS through another employer. This club haven't mentioned their DBS requirements yet, but I would expect them to at some point.

The club haven't given him a role definition - that is something they need to do. They first described it as "assistant coach" but after he queried the pay they are now pulling back and using phrases like "extra eyes and ears" and "development opportunity", so more of a "Helper" role.

They are great people - just a bit overstretched and sometimes disorganised.

OP posts:
Original poster
tripodd · 26/02/2022 09:45

Also, the "payment" is now being described as an "acknowledgement" rather than a salary or reimbursement of expenses, so a sort of cash-in-hand thankyou for volunteering.

OP posts:
thanktor · 26/02/2022 10:44

Out of interest
What are you hoping to achieve?

Justkeeppedaling · 26/02/2022 10:47

@McT123

The "middle ground" is that the coaches are self employed and invoice the sports club. My club has the exact same set up, most people involved are volunteers but a small number of qualified coaches are paid. It is highly unlikely that your children will be classed as employees and therefore minimum wage is largely irrelevant.

This sounds right. I suspect
your child will be volunteering to help with coaching - he won't actually be a paid coach (don't you have to do coaching exams to be a coach)?

Honestly - if it's a good club, and you don't want to destroy it, I would leave well alone.

Justkeeppedaling · 26/02/2022 10:50

Posted too soon.

I'd be looking at this as a great opportunity for DS to get some volunteering on his CV and not going in with all guns blazing demanding job descriptions and payments etc.

Unless your DD isn't interested in a volunteer role. In which case a polite no thank you to the club would suffice.

Original poster
tripodd · 26/02/2022 11:08

@Justkeeppedaling as stated above, he is 18, so not a 'child' and has a coaching qualification, dbs, also a first aid certificate. He has lots of volunteering (and playing) experience already.

But actually I'm not after opinions on whether he takes the role - that is up to him - I want him to make sure the role is properly defined, and not breaking HMRC rules, and I also need to decide whether to mention anything (gently) to the club.

Thanks for your help everyone. I will try to work out if some of the full coaches are self employed, but most of them do have 'day jobs', e.g. as teachers.

OP posts:
thanktor · 26/02/2022 11:21

They offered him a bit of cash for a job he will enjoy and will look good on his cv and give him experience

I wouldn’t rock the boat OP for he sake for a very small amount of money to bring it
Up to the minimum wage level for an 18 year old

But I suspect there is quite a bit more history between you and this club than just this!

itsnotdeep · 26/02/2022 11:29

Aren't you overthinking this? He's 18, he wants to do a role that interests him. If it is shit or he's exploited, he can leave.

thanktor · 26/02/2022 11:30

@itsnotdeep

Aren't you overthinking this? He's 18, he wants to do a role that interests him. If it is shit or he's exploited, he can leave.
Hence me thinking there’s a back story

Behind him there’ll be a queue of 18 year olds wanting a bit of cash, this kind of job and the experience on CV