Government stuffing young people again, student loans

[Binjob118]

Great day to bury the news that from next year student loans will be repayed over 40 years instead of 30. This makes a massive difference. Hate this government and Tony bloody Blair for stopping free tuition. Of course, won't affect all the rich kids who never take out the loan. This on top of impossibility of young people ever being able to buy a home makes me want to scream. Totally screwed. Certainly don't think IABU!!

[quote DottyHarmer]@Fernhurst - European degrees are very different. Italy, for example, has a pyramid structure; if you don’t pass the first year (and many don’t) you’re off the course. No cuddly diddums I can’t manage excuses (and the institution wanting to keep all the fee paying students no matter how crap they are).[/quote]
They did this at my English uni. Everyone had to pass first year or you were out. I thought all unis did that?

[quote JohnNutLips]@worriedatthemoment apprenticeships at my company start at £20k pa and the company pays for the degree, plus paid study leave. It’s competitive, and rightly so as we want the best people! If the jobs that your DS is considering after Uni are going to lead to higher future wages then he shouldn’t have an issue paying the debt back.[/quote]
They don't pay - the use their levy funding pot to pay. So not quite that generous

@Florenz

Pair back academic degrees to Russell Group universities and make everything else vocational.

That would mean scrapping lots of the top 20 best UK unis 😂

They did this at my English uni. Everyone had to pass first year or you were out. I thought all unis did that?

The UK system is predicted on selection for entry - everyone who starts can progress to the next year as long as they pass. Many European systems are predicted on x% failing the first year. So pretty much anyone can start irrespective of their school grades, but only the top 60% are allowed into the second year.

Interestingly the costs are split by language not nation - English speaking countries charge students fees, non-English countries pay for HE via taxation.

*predicated

@CayrolBaaaskin

It’s totally unfair - arts graduates pay more than the cost of their course. Why should young people be so blighted just to get an education. It’s to everyone’s benefit to have an educated population. If graduates earn more (they do on average) they pay more tax so they already pay for themselves.

As the pandemic showed it’s also fantastically important to have people to work in care homes, work in supermarkets and drive lorries non of which require you to write 12,000 word dissertations. Why on earth should they pay tax towards people that out earn them? They should be taking home more in their wages.

I agree with the English and maths GCSE although only until being a mature student. Not being ready to learn is not the same as being unintelligent.

I really don’t understand this country . Education is a public good , society as a whole benefits from having a more highly educated population , it’s not just about money , it’s about ideas and what we want our society to be like in the future.

We had the smallest difference between rich and poor in the 1960s and 1970s when education was free with maintenance grants for all. We had politicians who had come from working class and lower middle class backgrounds and made to Oxford /Cambridge and Downing Street, people like Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, Dennis Healy even Margaret Thatcher. But then we made it a commodity and now look what we’ve got ; the most unequal society in Europe and a government of entitled buffoons . It’s not a coincidence.

@cyclamenqueen

I really don’t understand this country . Education is a public good , society as a whole benefits from having a more highly educated population , it’s not just about money , it’s about ideas and what we want our society to be like in the future.

We had the smallest difference between rich and poor in the 1960s and 1970s when education was free with maintenance grants for all. We had politicians who had come from working class and lower middle class backgrounds and made to Oxford /Cambridge and Downing Street, people like Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, Dennis Healy even Margaret Thatcher. But then we made it a commodity and now look what we’ve got ; the most unequal society in Europe and a government of entitled buffoons . It’s not a coincidence.

Certainly- but not in the way you’re thinking. Education was free for those who qualified. I.e got the grades. Which actually benefits ‘working class’ people more. Fewer people overall had degrees, it was obviously valuable so you could walk into a job upon graduating even if it was a third. And obviously an indicator of calibre.

This didn’t mean that non-degree holders were shut out. They just had to rise through the ranks while degree holders skipped the queue (of course not including jobs like medicine where a degree was actually needed).

Now ‘too many’ people have a degree, so of course it’s devalued and employers need another way to differentiate. Which often favours the more well off who can get internships with connections, do ‘entrepreneurial’ stuff etc etc.

Degrees and alternative paths go together no question but everhone in a 3 year +?course isn’t the answer.

@InTheNightWeWillWish

I don’t think it should be a loan or that there should be fees, it should be a graduate tax. That’s essentially what the people who had to take a loan have. The current system falls down when students whose parents can pay the fees up front have extra disposable income afterwards. One of DH’s friends, his parents paid his tuition fees. His parents were able to gift him a large sum towards a house. They’re the same age as parents but have been able to retire earlier and look after their child. DH’s friend has a lower mortgage due to a considerable cash gift, have no childcare fees and no student loan repayment. A graduate tax makes it much more equal for those who choose to go to university regardless of their background.

I have the maximum loans pre-2012, I’m from a lower income background and paid for my masters by working full time. I don’t think the whole population should pay for my education but I don’t think the loan system works.

This

I believe education should free, but if there's going to be an effective graduate tax, it's wrong to exempt some people because their parents are rich. ( And I say that as someone busy squirrelling away cash to pay for my kids' university educations).

@Sleepy86 not around where we are they don't i can assure you we have been signed upto them for the last 3 years , just because you got one doesn't mean there are loads and there's not even enough that pay the apprentice wage for those that want them

@labyrinthlaziness I disagree. With a business you invest in physical equipment (in the aim to make money). At uni you invest in your self to gain more knowledge. To hopefully have the skills to earn a good wage when you graduate. That's why the graduate wage premium exists.

@leopooh

Why are so many graduates not earning enough currently to pay the loans back?

They weren’t bright enough in the first place.

This is the nub of the issue.

University should be an academic pursuit for the elite of students, not for the masses to study tourism.

I truly feel for the young people of today. As mentioned further upthread it is not just the increase in school fees. It feels as though the next generation are going to go through hard times. Lower income families will not have the ability to put money aside for house deposits or be able to financially support their children to move to areas for higher paid/better apprenticeships.

It is right that the amount of children going to uni should be reduced but I do not think that the amount of apprenticeships that will now be required will be available nationwide, possibly in London and the South East. I highly doubt the government have thought that far ahead. What happens to those that can not get onto an apprenticeship and fail to meet the new uni criteria? Will there be an increase of young people claiming benefits?

I have stated on previous threads that the education system is barely fit for purpose. Since the move from the industrial into the digital revolution education has fallen behind and has left a significant number of school leavers unprepared for the types of careers that are available.

They weren’t bright enough in the first place.

This is the nub of the issue.

What a load of crap!

@labyrinthlaziness If it was possible to get into a university on a C or lower then I can guarantee that those universities were not considered to be any good. And of course, "back in the good old days" (as you say) employers looked very closely at the quality of university you went to. So I doubt it would have gotten you very far in comparison to someone who got better grades and went to a better quality institution.

Sorry, but that's life.

@Ohdearthatwasntgreatwasit did you go to uni or do your children

@Frankola i think if you came out with a first that still got you somewhere
People really just like to look down on others so unless your a straight a student you shouldn't go?
Uni is not like gcse and a level so actually the style suits some much better and they can achieve more
I honestly think some people are scared that too many working class people are getting degrees

Why should students who don’t have good GSCEs in English lit, English language, and maths go to university? American universities are full of young people with poor literacy and math skills who can’t write their way out of a paper bag. Students with poor skills are more likely to drop out, and be stuck with loans they can’t repay.

I think a part of the debate should be the terrible value for money of many university degrees. It's robbery, actually. Pile em high and sell em cheap philosophy.

@fernhurst You are proving my point.

Say someone went to a Poly or college and then came out and get a job at which they're barely paying their loan back, taking a huge portion of their working life to do so, then that's up to them. They're doing what they can. But the onus is on them to pay it back. Why should it be "free" (when we know its really the tax payer that covers that cost)? It's just putting extra burdens on the public purse.

And so what if the costs now are higher? Diddums. These students are aware of the costs when they go. They're 18 and classed as adults so should be capable of making a grown up decision about taking on that financial burden.

If you can't or don't want to pay your student loan back you shouldn't be entitled to pursue university education. It's simple.

[quote MyDcAreMarvel]**@Ohdearthatwasntgreatwasit* If students aren’t academic enough to pass maths GCSE at a first sit, then they’re just not university material.* what a ridiculous comment. My SIL has Dyscalculia.
My nephew achieved A* in maths further maths and computer science at A level. He is now in his second year at Durham. He “failed” English language and English literature.[/quote]
My son was seriously ill while in years 9,10 and the begining of year 11. Bed bound at home or hospital in chronic pain .He had roughly 4mths prep for GCSEs and thanks to an amazing school and the fact that he is naturaly academic he achived his GCSEs and is now doing A levels.
If an effective treatment had not been found on time for my son he wouldnt have got his GCSEs or be doing A levels or be able to apply for a student loan to do his degree.Would he have deserved to have his prospects in life further diminished through no fault of his own.
There are many, many reasons why children dont get GCSEs.

@worriedatthemoment
I agree with your last sentence completely. I'm from a working class background. I was the first in my family to be able to go to uni. The university I went to was full of 'titled' families and very wealthy kids.

But there's the issue. Whilst I was working class I worked my ass off to get what I needed to to get in. My parents saved their backsides off to help me at uni.

Some people just seem to think it's a right of passage or just something they're entitled to do and they scrape on in and go to a crap uni but expect it all to be paid for. Why should the public fund that?

@leopooh

Thank god my dc have EU passports, honestly I would encourage any young person who has the means to look for opportunity elsewhere.

Same here🙂

I agree. You can see how other countries still.invest in the young and a skilled workforce. We're more interested in squandering millions on leaving the single market and damaging international relations. Shafting the young at every turn

If it means that the interest rate gets brought down to something less extortionate, then I'm actually all for it.