Government stuffing young people again, student loans

[Binjob118]

Great day to bury the news that from next year student loans will be repayed over 40 years instead of 30. This makes a massive difference. Hate this government and Tony bloody Blair for stopping free tuition. Of course, won't affect all the rich kids who never take out the loan. This on top of impossibility of young people ever being able to buy a home makes me want to scream. Totally screwed. Certainly don't think IABU!!

@worriedatthemoment £27k loan. Graduated in 2008. Starting salary after graduation 28k, rising to around 70k at the point it was paid off.

@Slothtoes

I agree with your posts Parsley. We should all pay for education because we will all benefit from having a larger number of educated people in the workforce and having a larger number of educated people in society. I’m struggling to find any room for disputing that view.

The hole in your argument - going to university doesn't mean that you're educated. What's the meaning of the word? To me, educated = having critical thinking, curiosity, learning skills.

You don't need a degree to have this, and it's lacking in many graduates.
It's not a question of RG vs ex-poly but standards. For certain degrees 80% of the grade is 'coursework' that's just multiple-choice quizzes/worksheets. Or it's impossible to fail if you demonstrate 'some' pros and cons in essays, which have limited topics. All students have to do is memorise.

Compared to others with practical experience, or where students have projects, debate, discuss, firing ideas.

That's why my company has moved to hiring apprentices. Potential is visible in school leavers, no need for a degree, we train them and get them a degree if they want (degree apprenticeship). Zero debt, and they're very sharp!

Some of the dumbest people I've seen OTOH were Oxbridge graduates. In STEM subjects. A couple even had PhD's, but no common sense or curiosity at all beyond their narrow domain of knowledge. I wondered why they even bothered working for us (in a field unrelated to their degree).

FE colleges where people can take courses, mix with other young people but not full on uni would be the best, and cheaper. In fact these already somewhat exist for qualifications like the accounting ones.

I personally mentioned STEM, and medicine as useful degrees. Does economics count would you say?

Also the issue isn't about 'degrees' but the lack of other paths.
If there were other parts lack of degree isn't a problem.
This idiotic push for 'degrees' has to end. Even employers are starting to realise how farcicial it is. Not many however, and not at the rate they should while taxpayers continue to fund universities pumping out graduates.

@JohnNutLips yes and there more than £27000 just for the fees and many graduates only start on about £25000 now and cost of living is higher , why do people always compare to what they have done
Its almost like some are scared there will be more working class with degrees
The youngsters today have hardly any apprenticeships or places willing tO take them on and for them to come up through the ranks

I see it similar to providing a loan for someone to start a small business. You give them the money(opportunity) they need so they can invest etc... but they have to pay it back.

@downtonabbeyfan1234

I personally mentioned STEM, and medicine as useful degrees. Does economics count would you say?

'Economics' is very broad. You have some very highly regarded degrees which have hard quantitative modules, giving a well-rounded education. Some have only one or two 'economics' modules without much mathematics, just a slight extension of A-level Economics. And rounded out with other 'soft' modules like basic history/politics/'management'

Again it depends on the module content. Same for business, management... a bit generic, a good uni adds prestige but very easy to pad out and make useless with no thinking required

I’m glad I’m on type 1, and will pay off my loan in the next 2 years. That said it’s essentially a graduate tax rather than a loan. The difference will be for those in middle income who won’t see the benefit of having repaid, and the additional cash each month.

@worriedatthemoment everyone has different t circumstances, I’m just saying it’s perfectly possible to pay the loans off. If you leave uni and can’t get a job at the threshold to start paying it off then there is something seriously wrong.

@downtonabbeyfan1234

I see it similar to providing a loan for someone to start a small business. You give them the money(opportunity) they need so they can invest etc... but they have to pay it back.

Completely illogical way of looking at it though, businesses are nothing like individuals.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@JohnNutLips yes and there more than £27000 just for the fees and many graduates only start on about £25000 now and cost of living is higher , why do people always compare to what they have done
Its almost like some are scared there will be more working class with degrees
The youngsters today have hardly any apprenticeships or places willing tO take them on and for them to come up through the ranks [/quote]
You don't need to go to uni for 3 years to get a degree though!
Plenty of unis offer PT courses, you can even get a degree online.
Unfortunately many people don't know, and the fact is quite hidden.
I'm probably more aware because of my field (tech) famous for getting in 'unconventional' people, and my company's hiring approach.

But there's no need to go to uni for 3 whole years if you just want 'a degree' and many go later in life.

HOWEVER the atmosphere of achievement, independence etc is also something to consider. If you're in a dead-end town with few jobs around you're not really going to be motivated.

That's why IMO a combo of working/studying is best but it needs industry support.

There's no incentive for employers to train people if they can have their pick of 'graduates', and the ones who think 'degree=job' without the intensive career prep that the clued up ones do just get left behind having wasted 3 years. Just with a 'degree' but no better off.

Unless you're like us and can't find good people

We should all pay for education because we all benefit from education. We all benefit from the educated people produced.

The thing is, we don't. There are a whole host of arts/social sciences where a degree is an extremely expensive way for people to learn things in a detail that never gets used for anything economically valuable. The cost of undergraduate tuition is a high as it is because it basically cross subsidises a lot of vanity research projects. As a nation we can't afford to fund anyone and everyone to indulge their interests via expensive full time study.

@OfstedOffred

We should all pay for education because we all benefit from education. We all benefit from the educated people produced.

The thing is, we don't. There are a whole host of arts/social sciences where a degree is an extremely expensive way for people to learn things in a detail that never gets used for anything economically valuable. The cost of undergraduate tuition is a high as it is because it basically cross subsidises a lot of vanity research projects. As a nation we can't afford to fund anyone and everyone to indulge their interests via expensive full time study.

Again this is very ignorant. Education has a value beyond the economic.

England is falling behind other nations due to this kind of thinking.

There are a lot of job roles out there that people can work their way into without needing to attend uni.

Both myself and my DH did apprenticeships, him in electrical engineering and I studied accountancy. Both of us incurred no student debt and worked throughout our training, earning a decent income in the process. We are both now Chartered in our respective fields, I work in senior management and DH has his own company.

It's possible to go to uni to study for each of these professions, but further qualifications would still be needed and the degree only gives an extra couple of exemptions for the chartered accountancy exams for instance.

Lets assume a uni student leaves uni with £45k student debt (including course fees and student loans) for a 3 year course. An apprentice takes a different approach, different exams etc whilst working and earning £20K per year (average). By the end of the 3 years of uni an accountancy student can be £105K better off by not attending uni.

Yes it may be that some employers would prefer to employ a graduate, but I can honestly say in my almost 20 year working career my lack of degree has only ever been questioned once.

Honestly, please encourage kids to look at apprenticeships as they can be the most sensible route to the career they want!

@Kumbaya12 but do to part time you have to live near a uni and many of us don't have that luxury and the online way still costs
My ds is doing a degree that some on here would consider pointless but we live in a small town with lid jobs and the decent ones often want a degree , almost any degree
So for him its for independence , to make him see its a big world out there and a degree as he needs it for the 2 jobs he is currently considering
He's taken a year out to work to get some funds behind him as well and some work experience , but when he was looking for work most places just wouldn't look twice at him let alone employ him and the job he has is temp and many in the company have been there for years still on temp contracts
They will continue to go to uni while the options remain limited
Most of them can't even get a parr time job now until there 16 , unlike when I was younger when many of us had sat jobs at 14

@Sleepy86 what you don't understand though is there are very few apprenticeships and mee applying than spaces and they don't pay £20000 a year either

Many more applying

Most western countries (America, Australia as starters) expect people to pay for degrees.

Check out France levels of taxation if you want free university education.

Do something about improving vocational education so we have decent training for trades instead of cretins doing media studies.

@Sleepy86 also apprenticeships almost disappeared for quite a few years hence why trades are quite short
They are starting to make a comeback but there are not enough for those that want them and many companies don't consider apprenticeships
I have one at college and one just gone and we looked at the apprenticeships availible , I know their friends who have started trades and college and now to do level 3 need an apprenticeship and are struggling to find them

@Bootikin my friend did media studies and she is now a teacher working her way up in the profession so maybe not all waste these
People throw it around without really knowing where these degress can get you

We were screwed already. I graduated in 2016. I've actually gained more in interest on the loan than I have paid back.

View it as a graduate tax - you lose £100 or so every month and forget about it.

@worriedatthemoment apprenticeships at my company start at £20k pa and the company pays for the degree, plus paid study leave. It’s competitive, and rightly so as we want the best people! If the jobs that your DS is considering after Uni are going to lead to higher future wages then he shouldn’t have an issue paying the debt back.

@JohnNutLips tbf the jobs aren't that well paid teacher / police officer both need a degree though and both needed in society
He would jump at a £20000 apprenticeship with a degree but not an option near us all apprenticeships are apprentice wage . And only odd ones that are higher maybe with a degree are engineering and thats not his forte

[quote worriedatthemoment]@Sleepy86 what you don't understand though is there are very few apprenticeships and mee applying than spaces and they don't pay £20000 a year either [/quote]
Lots of companies have apprenticeships with starting salaries of £20k, I personally worked for one a few years ago and mentored the apprentices.

Yes there is a shortage of apprenticeships, it is something that needs attention to change, but they are out there!

@DottyHarmer

Frankly I think it should be backdated. I know someone who has a degree and MA and will intentionally never work. So nothing to pay back - ever. At least the fees should be collected from estates when people die in the distant future. Plenty of people earn just under the threshold for repayment too.

Sadly if you have near-on 50% of young people going to university, this is what happens. And, as usual, it will be the schmucks in the middle who suffer - the middle earners

I care less about “silly” degrees which are actually vocational; I object to people studying English at a place that until five minutes ago was a HE college. I can’t remember the place but it was in the news that at just such an establishment the students were studying Harry Potter and The Hunger Games. That is a disgrace; it is Year 6 level.

Those books may be year six level to READ but to analyse in the manner a literature degree does would be degree level. You can study anything in Lit and apply the proper theories to deduce information/create your own theories and analysis. I did my MA thesis on cook books for example...

If you don't understand what a subject is of course you won't see any value in it.