Government stuffing young people again, student loans

[Binjob118]

Great day to bury the news that from next year student loans will be repayed over 40 years instead of 30. This makes a massive difference. Hate this government and Tony bloody Blair for stopping free tuition. Of course, won't affect all the rich kids who never take out the loan. This on top of impossibility of young people ever being able to buy a home makes me want to scream. Totally screwed. Certainly don't think IABU!!

I’m 24 so I think I’m just young enough to roughly equate my education with those in sixth form currently. There is no option outside of uni to them. They funnel you through applications and you are an outlier if you decide not to apply. They have absolutely no idea what to do with you if you say you want to go straight to a profession. I was in the best sixth form college for miles. It was once voted best in the north i think. The problem is that they rely on having students getting into uni to bump their stats. To get grants. To get any recognition they need their students to go to uni. Who made this system? Government did. Government decided they needed to show the world what an education population we have. They were the ones that put this system in place, told us we have to go to school until 18 unless we want to be a plumber on a crappy course that’s badly regulated. Better still, you can become a ‘sandwich artist’ at subway for £3 an hour if you like.

To all those telling young people we have a choice. You’re wrong. Social mobility is stunted if we don’t go to uni because the other options are often not viable. We are funnelled into uni all through secondary, from the time I was 11 there was no other option but uni. Nothing else was ever discussed. How are we supposed to know if that’s all we have ever been told to aim for, and if we don’t get in we must be really really dim.

Fwiw, I didn’t go to uni because I got sick at 17 and had to rethink what I could do around my new limitations. I got kicked out of the amazing college because they wouldn’t accommodate my disability and let me do two a levels due to lack of funding. I missed my chance, and I struggle with that now because the teaching there was the best I will ever get in my life. It was head and shoulders above anything else I have ever gone on to do.

@ikeepseeingit well said
So wrong you were not supported during your illness though

@RedWingBoots
For example Golf Course studies. Sounds Mickey Mouse but we actually have loads of golf courses in the UK and need people to run and manage them. Yes the person could do Business studies degree instead but then it will take them longer to be useful in the industry.

So shouldn't the leisure industry be paying for this training while at the same time providing on-the-job experience? This would ensure that the employee had relevant skills and would also eliminate the waste of educating too many people in low-demand professions. Why should the tax payer pick up the tab?

[quote RedWingBoots]@MorningStarling What is a Mickey Mouse course?

Some courses have stupid titles but if you actually look at what the course covers and delve into the modules you release it isn't a Mickey Mouse course and in some cases actually is allied to an industry.

For example Golf Course studies. Sounds Mickey Mouse but we actually have loads of golf courses in the UK and need people to run and manage them. Yes the person could do Business studies degree instead but then it will take them longer to be useful in the industry.

Also allowing people do to certain courses for free or at reduced fees isn't helpful as you could do a degree in say nursing and then become an accountant. I actually know people who did similar. Or you could do a civil engineering degree and become a ballroom dancer like Oti Mabuse.

Finally cheaper courses actually cross subsidise courses that are expensive for universities to run particularly if the university can't get enough foreign students on their expensive courses in a particular year.[/quote]
But many of those courses are ones which really ought to be vocational learning on the job.

@CouldIhaveaword you would pick it up either way , the company would pay less taxes or we would be subsidising the low wage
I would love the goverment to be honest and say how much it actually cost the tax payer per person, and then how many of these get goverment top ups as well so costing them even less
Its ok saying its so many billion as that sounds huge , but if it was it would save each taxpayer £6 a year or £300 thats a big difference

@DdraigGoch but its not so surely you fix that issue before the loans and university
If there were more alternative options do you think so many would go , of course not
Its like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted

Scotland can still offer free uni though
@worriedatthemoment and yet social mobility in Scotland is much worse, with poorer children less likely to go to uni than in England

Plan 2 loans are an outrage anyway. I've paid over 10k back in the past 6 years of working/leaving uni and my outstanding student loan debt is HIGHER THAN WHEN I LEFT UNI because of interest rates.

I can't really get frustrated with garbage being replaced with garbage. I'd actually prefer the new loan terms I think because the interest rate wouldn't be so high so I'd actually be able to pay it off. I appreciate that might not be the case for a large amount of people. But yes, us and all our children are being fucked over by the government what a surprise.

Blair/Brown were clearly disciples of George Orwell. Rather than actually improving the education of the population, they changed the system to give an illusion of improved education, i.e. by moving the goalposts so more people got degrees, but many of those "degrees" aren't of the same standard as previously, i.e. subjects previously taught in Polys and colleges that were turned into "universities". Classic Orwelian doublespeak and could be straight out of the pages of 1984.

@GreenPepperRed

Plan 2 loans are an outrage anyway. I've paid over 10k back in the past 6 years of working/leaving uni and my outstanding student loan debt is HIGHER THAN WHEN I LEFT UNI because of interest rates.

I can't really get frustrated with garbage being replaced with garbage. I'd actually prefer the new loan terms I think because the interest rate wouldn't be so high so I'd actually be able to pay it off. I appreciate that might not be the case for a large amount of people. But yes, us and all our children are being fucked over by the government what a surprise.

Yes, this is the myth perpetuated by Unis themselves and disgracefully by Martin Lewis among others, who have previously told people that student loans aren't really debts, "most people don't pay them off", etc., giving the impression that they're not something to be frightened off. I've reviewed numerous calculations/forecasts and done plenty of my own and huge numbers of people WILL repay more than they borrowed but still not pay it all off, simply because of the punitively high interest rates. Only a small proportion may pay off their loans, but a huge number will pay off the amount borrowed plus a huge wedge of interest and still not have cleared it by the time the years are up. Today's youngsters have been led up the garden path, not just by govt, but also by Unis themselves and Martin Lewis, who have given the wrong impression. It's the interest that's the killer. Most students will repay the amount borrowed, but they don't repay all the interest, hence the almost fraudulent assertion that most students never pay off their loans!

@DdraigGoch How do you know the subject area shouldn't be a degree?

You are just going on the title not on what the course covers.

Anyway my point is people are saying a particular subject is mickey mouse not understanding what the degree entails. I actually know some STEM courses that have mickey mouse sounding titles and people who have done them through the years.

@DdraigGoch and your point is ?
Thats due to many many other issues and prob education at younger ages needing improvement to those with poorer backgrounds
Because its not so easy to get in to uni with poor grades like many think
The pp who posted earlier people at her local uni all doing law on e grades ,couldn't provide the link ?
Many european countries who have free or at least cheaper unis have better social mobility so it does work
My point about scotland is it can be done in the uk so why not england ?

@user1497207191 exactly why have such high interest rates
Why not just pay what they borrow with a small amount added on top
Aren't these loans also run by companies

Getting a good job and going to university haven’t been linked for quite some time (I graduated in 2008 and the economic crash, horribly aware of this).

The university system is an absolute mess, fees don’t cover everything, it creates a weird dynamic that if you’re a customer paying for something you feel you should have more rights than traditional free education, finally they’re talking about cutting down on Arts subjects when actually low contact hours Arts subjects actually help to fund the STEM courses which are a lot more expensive to run.

I also find it deeply depressing there never seems to be a mention that education for education’s sake is worthwhile. Is it because being a student is seen as fun and therefore we shouldn’t have to pay? We’re worried people would just do degrees rather than work? I’ve done both a traditional arts based degree that was massively enjoyable but more general, and a masters for a career pathway and the former has made much more of an impact on my life in reality even though the more vocational masters did help me get a job.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@user1497207191 exactly why have such high interest rates
Why not just pay what they borrow with a small amount added on top
Aren't these loans also run by companies [/quote]
I think it comes back to Blair/Brown wanting the loans to be "private" and "off balance sheet" to reduce the deficit, just like the way they embraced PFI for schools and hospitals. They'd rather pay high interest and have the debt "off balance sheet" than be honest and show it as part of government debt/the deficit, etc. Just smoke and mirrors really for short term gain, in terms of making the figures look better at the time, but with long term detrimental consequences.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@DdraigGoch and your point is ?
Thats due to many many other issues and prob education at younger ages needing improvement to those with poorer backgrounds
Because its not so easy to get in to uni with poor grades like many think
The pp who posted earlier people at her local uni all doing law on e grades ,couldn't provide the link ?
Many european countries who have free or at least cheaper unis have better social mobility so it does work
My point about scotland is it can be done in the uk so why not england ?[/quote]
The way the achieve it in Scotland is by having quotas , hence for example it is more difficult for a Scottish student to get into St Andrews than for an English student. There are only a limited number of free places .

@CouldIhaveaword I actually looked up the degree and the syllabuses when one of the newspapers was publicising it was a mickey mouse degree a few years back.

Anyway at least one of the universities who did it made it very clear that you were expected to take a year out in "industry" plus get other experience working in the area. The universities job was to educate you in business studies and any relevant horticulture.

The confusion comes from the fact that since 1992 all universities have equal status. Prior to that no-one would bat an eyelid when such courses were offered aligned to areas like textile manufacturing or the car industry in polytechnics. Those industries don't exist so they are replaced with vocational courses aimed at the leisure and tourism industry.

In fact I know someone who did something like business studies and tourism as degree. He spent a lot of time working in hotels during his degree. He now works in the IT industry in a technical area. Due to his degree he has emigrated as he has the degree qualification to do so. Due to the interpersonal skills he got from his work experience on the degree he manage to convince an employer to put him in that position.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@DdraigGoch and your point is ?
Thats due to many many other issues and prob education at younger ages needing improvement to those with poorer backgrounds
Because its not so easy to get in to uni with poor grades like many think
The pp who posted earlier people at her local uni all doing law on e grades ,couldn't provide the link ?
Many european countries who have free or at least cheaper unis have better social mobility so it does work
My point about scotland is it can be done in the uk so why not england ?[/quote]
I've just compared out local "proper" university with the nearest ex-poly university. Both for the law LLB degree.

The proper Uni want 136 UCAS points, the ex-poly only want 64! That's less than half for what is basically an identical degree.

I accept that's not E grades at A level, but I'm not the poster who suggested it was. But, they're normal entry requirements, which would be reduced in clearing, so it's quite possible that someone with E grades at A level could get into the ex-poly law degree course through clearing which is typically a grade or two less than published course requirement.

@worriedatthemoment

My point about scotland is it can be done in the uk so why not england

Simple, it's a numbers game. Scotland Unis don't need "bums on seats" in the same way that English Unis are set up, and there are fewer students in Scotland and fewer "free" places in Scotland, so overall costs are lower.

And the worst part is that these law graduates haven’t got a cat in hells chance of getting a job in the law

Just another nail in the coffin for the uk at large. Depressing few years and it's only getting worse. He's now picking on those that want a decent future. I despair i really do

@cyclamenqueen true. All the people I know who are (or in some cases were) solicitors and barristers have other undergraduate degrees.

However it is part of the UK education system. You do an undergraduate degree in one area then go and work in a completely different area.

Ethel intake is roughly 50:50 k on aw grass and others for solicitors and higher law grads for the bar. But getting a training contract is very difficult anyway and from a lower ranked university practically impossible . It’s an intellectual discipline, the attraction for name lawyers is the intellectual challenge.

@user1497207191 see i haven't found that when looking for my son maybe we only looked at better unis , I have no idea he only chose exeter, bournemouth and out local uni centre which was less requirements and he could of lived at home but he got a no from that and no from exeter so left with one
No idea if its a good uni or not , I know its obviously not oxford or cambridge
Funnily enough i did a btech when i applied it was a college , when i was there it changed to a polytecnic and just before i left it became a university as such

We actually have an amazing university system and people from all over the world [used to] want to come and study or teach in the uk. Students from international schools globally choose to come to the uk to study what some posters here call Mickey Mouse courses because they are creative, contemporary, moving with the times and are linked to the real world in a way universities in many many countries really aren't.

People saying school leavers should just get stuck into the world of work/apprentice/industry from 18 are just deluded. Have you seen 18 year olds? They often have no clue, they are children; they are growing up and developing their brains through the university years; it's an extension of the womb. And yes, society has a duty to provide it. And universities make citizens, they are not supposed to train people for specific narrow skills (except in professions when they are supposed to do exactly that) because it is education for life and it is equipping students with ability to learn and adapt because those narrow skills would be redundant in a few years. That's why best unis in computer science teach broad maths and not focus too much on specific programming languages, to give a base with which people can progress in whatever direction they want. Very similar with many other subjects