Y5 taught about child prostitution

[ShiteheadRevisited]

Help me get some perspective.

DD(9) told me last night that as part of their class learning about children's rights in R.E. yesterday, that "there was a really sad one" about "adults who make children have sex for money!"

She looked very shocked and upset telling me. Their teacher (very experienced with older daughter herself) apparently said that "you should all know what sex is" and that "this (adults making children have sex) is really, really horrible" and then moved on.

They have not covered human reproduction yet, and school's curriculum states that sex ed will occur in Y6, with a letter going home to parents beforehand (it's a small independently primary).

Our daughter knows about human reproduction/birds & bees etc but not sex for pleasure or anything else yet.

I don't consider myself a prude but am feeling very out of touch and actually quite emotional that a piece of childhood innocence has been taken from her.

AIBU to feel this way? I honestly don't know whether I'm being a bit of a pearl-clutcher and that this is normal content for primary schools nowadays, or if I have a right to feel pissed off??

YANBU Parents should correctly informed of what is being taught.
The topic of a child being sexually abused by an adult should never be a taught with a 'mentioned in passing but swiftly moving on' attitude.
The children may interpret this as its shameful and/or should remain a secret.
And as pointed out the teacher is presenting with an assumption that none of the students are or were being abused.
Its sexual abuse and if in the curriculum should be taught as such.
It should always be linked with tell someone and you will be listened to and helped.
If a family member is involved there will be some form of emotional abuse and grooming so the emphasis should be that the child's actions are not within their own control and that no matter the circumstance the child can safely disclose the abuse.

I would be very curious as to how rights of children translated into the topic of adults buying childrens bodies and sex and child sex abuse. Was slavery the lead in or something else?

The right to have sex is an adult right.
It should not be covered in any depth because 9-10 year olds dont have that right.

I think you need to check the teaching materials your daughter has, get a better understanding of what happened in class and discuss it with the teacher to get her perspective.
If the curriculum covers CSA prior to formal sex education all the parents should be updated.
The teacher also should not have assumed that all the children have been taught about sex acts (as opposed to female/male body parts, mum grows the baby and bad touching).

Now that the school has brought the subject up you should have a conversation about it as part of a broader conversation about changes to her body including her right to leave a classroom when dealing with periods in school.

@ThinWomansBrain

never talk to someone you don’t know online

wow - stranger danger myth still being supported then?

????

I still meet a lot of young people who are being groomed and then being forced to perform all kinds of acts online.
Just because it's more common to be abused by someone you know doesn't mean it doesn't happen in other ways.
Online abuse is tragically common.

@ThinWomansBrain denying the reality of online grooming as a gateway to the sexual abuse of children just makes you look really dumb.

"I would expect a nine year old to know what sex is, and what a prostitute is."

Really? Really?

My dc have all known about sex for reproduction as a matter of course - no big reveal or discussion but the conversations around healthy relationships, consent, sex for pleasure etc have only really happened with mine since end of primary and they certainly haven't got as far as transactional sex or organised sexual exploitation. Why on earth would they?

How can children possibly be expected to understand these topics and the amount of nuanced discussion around them (why should they) so all that happens when you tell 9 yr olds about CSE is that they feel less safe, more scared and potentially being their lifelong learning about sex and relationships with the sense that sex is exploitative, done to them, not based on consent and something to dread.

I can't see that you're basing this on real life knowledge and experience of 9 year olds really?

If the class was on the UN rights of the child, one of the rights are protection from sexual abuse and sexual exploitation so this may have been covered. However it sounds like the teacher maybe didn’t cover it quite right or had to respond to a difficult question.

I can't see that you're basing this on real life knowledge and experience of 9 year olds really? at 9 I certainly knew what sex was and I knew what a prostitute is.

And let’s be honest here, there is no escaping sex or mention of sex. The news is full of it, television is full of it, you can walk past an Anne summers shop on the high street with vibrators in the window.

Anyone who thinks that 9 year olds are not aware that there is such a thing as sex for pleasure is naive. Especially those who have older siblings.

We teach our children that no-one should be permitted to touch them in certain places and to never have to keep such secrets from e.g. their parents.

So children are, or should hopefully be, taught about sexual abuse from a young age in order to hopefully be able to speak out if it is done to them, or even learn to say no to protect themselves from it.

So while I don’t agree that the lesson should be a straight “people pay to have sex with children,” I don’t see what is wrong with children knowing that there are extremely bad people out there who will do things to children which we as parents have taught our own children is wrong, and will pay money to do so, which makes them doubly awful.

Victims of child sexual abuse are very real. It’s not palatable but it’s a reality.

The terminology needs changing, “child porn/child prostitution”, but often instead of teaching our children about dangers we shield them from them, which makes them more likely targets, not necessarily of paid sexual abuse, but certainly of grooming etc.

@Porcupineintherough I wasn't denying online grooming happens - but expressing surprise at MrsMo21's suggestion that teaching was focused on the risk of being abuses by strangers, given that many studies, including a 2019 one by NSPCC, conclude that the vast majority of children who experience sexual abuse were abused by someone they knew.
If you prefer to live in NIMBY ignorance, carry on - but don't accuse others of being dumb simply because you prefer to bury your head in the sand.

FFS makes me want to home educate my baby when she grows older (I won't). Why can't kids be kids for a while.

@ThinWomansBrain apologies - of course we go through consent and potential abuse by trusted members. Just for the purpose of a MN thread I didn’t really have time or the inclination to go through every single teaching point in my RSE curriculum. Please feel free to have a look at some online teaching curriculum tools for the whole low down on what we are meant to be covering.

I work with children who have been sexually trafficked and exploited - I have worked with numerous 10yos who have had this experience.

Yes, it is horrifying, but it is an increasing problem and knowledge is power. I have certainly explained to my 10 and 8yos what sexual exploitation is.

It drives me mad, actually. The nspcc pants rule is so widespread, bit we expect to be about to tell kids "what's in your pants is private" and not have any follow up questions about sexual abuse and why someone might want to see their privates.

Telling kids about sex and abuse doesn't stop them being innocent.

I would expect a nine year old to know what sex is, and what a prostitute is.

No. Really no.

I'm all for kids knowing the facts about reproduction and their bodies, but there is no reason a 9 year old needs to know about prostitution.

Anyone who thinks that 9 year olds are not aware that there is such a thing as sex for pleasure is naive. Especially those who have older siblings.
We have brought in the topic of sex frequently, and with a light touch, with my 10 year old (also Y5) over the years. He has some SEN but the main way this has affected him is that he's missed whatever would have been covered in RSE due to missing bits and pieces of school and moving school.
I had a serious chat with him a few weeks ago and went through a book and it was totally news to him. He is still at the point of "eww, why would you do that" and shocked that MUMMY AND DADDY DID THAT.
He is adopted as is DD and at some point we need to explain that one of them is the result of sex for money - there is no way he is ready for that and DD is younger.

It doesn't sound like this was handled well but that may just be your phrasing of it.

I think children at this age absolutely should be taught about sexual exploitation. We can't hide it, take no preventive measures whatsoever, and then act surprised that sexual abuse of children happens.

@Stompythedinosaur

I work with children who have been sexually trafficked and exploited - I have worked with numerous 10yos who have had this experience.

Yes, it is horrifying, but it is an increasing problem and knowledge is power. I have certainly explained to my 10 and 8yos what sexual exploitation is.

It drives me mad, actually. The nspcc pants rule is so widespread, bit we expect to be about to tell kids "what's in your pants is private" and not have any follow up questions about sexual abuse and why someone might want to see their privates.

Telling kids about sex and abuse doesn't stop them being innocent.

I agree but in this case it wasn't explained it was glossed over.

@ChiselandBits

I teach RS in secondary. Sometimes discussions go in a direction or a child asks a question at a tangent and you have to provide some sort of answer that is honest and true but you don't want to derail the lesson completely. It sounds like the teacher gave a straight, though oversimplified reply and moved on to get the lesson back on track. I think best thing now is for you, if your DD asks or is wondering, to give a little more context about how the children get no choice, emphasise the importance of speaking up and leave it there.

I would assume it was this - I doubt the teacher brought it up by choice, more likely the conversation came up and the teacher tried to engage with it. I remember being in year five when a boy in my class asked if it was true that the terrorists were raping the air hostesses on one of the 9/11 flights. Children ask questions, and teachers have to think on the fly.

absolutely. There's a big difference between dealing with a derailing question out of context and properly planned, resourced and timed PSHE lesson where you can carefully explain nuance and detail and why "child prostitution" is a contradiction in terms. I did a lesson with Y12 recently on pornography and dealt with this exact issue. There is no such thing child porn, its sexual assault on a minor and would be treated as such by anyone caught accessing it. - hard to get that kind of nuance across to a Y5 class though!

@AlternativePerspective

I would expect a nine year old to know what sex is, and what a prostitute is.

And I would also expect a 9 year old to have an understanding that many children are exploited in many different ways, including them being sold as child prostitutes, even though the terminology is wrong, that is how they’re seen by the perverts who exploit them.

We spend far too much time trying to protect children from a world which others of their age are a product of.

WTF?

No 9 year old needs to know what sex for pleasure is or prostitution is. My kids have know about reproduction at various levels of detail since they were 3 years old, they know how babies are made (PIV) and how the baby comes out. They knew about periods and ovulation. They were also taught to trust themselves and value their own boundaries.

They knew nothing about sex, we didn't refer to reproduction as sex until they were in year 6 / 11 years old and built up their knowledge bit by bit guided by their maturity.

The teacher was out of order and I would subtly enquire what has happened and why this was brought up.

@MrsMo21 - thanks, comforting to know

I would expect a nine year old to know what sex is, and what a prostitute is

What sex is? Yes, probably for most of them, although not all. And that's OK. 9 is the age for a lot of kids where things start to fall into place though.

What a prostitute is? Hell no. The concept of sex for most 9 year old (not all ) is still completely abstract and they are still piecing things together that they don't fully understand. Most 9 year olds wouldn't be able to understand the concept of 'sex for money' abuse, because they still don't fully understand what sex involves or how it makes people feel.

Kids don't need to know this stuff at 9.

That's very wrong, in my opinion. I'd be complaining to the school.

AlternativePerspectiveThu 24-Feb-22 07:01:45
I would expect a nine year old to know what sex is, and what a prostitute is

Really?! FFS, why must children know about those things?

Nice homes, posh cars, and fancy clothes don’t protect children from sexual abuse from parents, stepparents, much older siblings, and other relatives. Wealthy people can access private therapy, hide or ignore ill health, and aren’t likely to come to the attention of social workers. Many busy doctors don’t and can’t do the forensic work to reveal abuse. American private schools acquiesce in abusive situations, and not just with teacher situations. Many women later in abusive relationships were sexually or physically abused came from abusive homes. As adults, the trauma and chronic physical issues don’t go away. Many abuse substances to cut the pain.

As a Y6 teacher I'm quite surprised this was covered. We're just starting sex Ed and I know there'll be a lot of children who have heard the word 'sex' but not actually know what it is. There's nothing wrong with having a word with the head and voicing your concerns about addressing such an issue before they've had sex Ed.

For those arguing children shouldn't know, how are they to protect themselves if they don't know.

I was sexually abused through my childhood I didn't know it was wrong. And also had no one to tell. I was told I would be punished and taken away.
Dd is 9 I have given her knowledge. She knows about pants and privates and not touching. She also knows it's ok to challenge an adult to scream shout, kick punch whatever if she doesn't feel safe.
And most importantly I reiterate that it's ok to tell us anything we will not be cross, angry, she won't be in trouble.
This is how too many abusers get away with it.

@Opal4

For those arguing children shouldn't know, how are they to protect themselves if they don't know.

I was sexually abused through my childhood I didn't know it was wrong. And also had no one to tell. I was told I would be punished and taken away.
Dd is 9 I have given her knowledge. She knows about pants and privates and not touching. She also knows it's ok to challenge an adult to scream shout, kick punch whatever if she doesn't feel safe.
And most importantly I reiterate that it's ok to tell us anything we will not be cross, angry, she won't be in trouble.
This is how too many abusers get away with it.

Yes, but that is different to a teacher telling kids about prostitution. The knowledge you have given your daughter is about making her aware is age appropriate advice about keeping safe and knowing its OK to tell an adult things if you are uncomfortable. That is not the same as telling kids that sexual abuse happens on a wide scale. Otherwise, by that logic, we would tell children all the bad things that happen in the world from the moment they understand language, which is obviously not appropriate.

I am so sorry for what happened to you