To spend 5% of my take-home income on coffee instead of debt...

[zabindya]

...if that amount comes to £250 a month, or £3,000 a year?

I'm not sure which is the more honest way to look at it. Just did my accounts and got a shock at how much I'm spending. I always thought "stop buying lattes so you can afford a house!!" was an out-of-touch boomer thing to say, but now I'm wondering if they were right...!

My income has increased massively over the last couple years, after a lot of investment on my part including significant student debt and private loans. On one hand 5% seems small, on the other hand £3k seems very meaningful! (And I probably spend a similar amount again on delivery/takeaway...) I'm struggling to adjust to how to think about these big numbers compared to what I'm used to. Any suggestions? (Bracing myself for responses )

You are NBU but most of the people being targeted by the ‘stop having coffees and avocados’ brigade can’t afford to have that many so reducing the odd one here or there would make no difference to afford a house.

@zabindya

I just had a thought. Tell me if this is a bizarre way to look at things.

There is a certain amount of "keeping up with the Joneses" which is actually useful in my corporate world. I have seen first hand in the last year or two how much of an advantage it is to be "in". Not just a networking contact but a friend, one of us, "our sort of people". (This sounds horridly social-climby but I'm just stating what I see.) I don't want to give this up for the sake of saving a few hundred quid in interest. My career opportunity came from this kind of connection.

So I don't want to give it up. But equally coffee is a very stupid expense. I'd be happy to spend £5k on a "keeping up with the Joneses" budget line item, but £5k buys a lot of spa days and ski holidays which are even better for deepening friendships. So my idea is, allocate the £5k for this, rather than more debt payments, but force myself to be thoughtful about whether the investment is actually an investment vs a habit?

Oh my god, just writing this makes me sound awful...

My career really is not dissimilar...

What I have found to be true is
A. I like nice things
B. I like being financially secure
C. Networking is important
D you need a system or principles - it makes decision making easy.

Coffees - my husband was spending close to 3k on coffee when we met. Now we buy high end coffee beans and use keep cups. We do not buy coffee or water when out. Ever. Even in 2 star Michelin we get filtered water. ( bottled is terrible for my wallet the planet
My keepcup is actually a fairly fancy liberty one I got for about £8 instead if £30 at their sample sale.
Holidays yes do a lot if them but i shop around and also benchmark the prices some stuff you are better booking way in advance. We spend on average £1k per week per person all in inc flights (we only fo 5 star really and the holidays are normally "worth" a lot more)
gel nails worth it for me. £25 gel nails last 3 weeks at the place I go to (she is amazing) and at £450 a year it is value to me as I look polished at work.
Lashes I use rapid lash and lvl this is the right price/quality pay off for me and again its the grooming/image
Outerwear for autumn and spring i buy those plain george coats that are £16!!! in a range of colours and wear them with decent handbags (anything from furla to dior/ LV). I get a lot of compliments
one decent watch
restaurants I like good food and its worth paying for in my opinion. People also love food and talking about it. I go to interesting places.
home improvement get on the ladder. It's an endless source of bonding material!!
All my stuff is ikea dressed/hacked up but I look at brands like Neptune and can wax lyrical until the cow come home. I got marble coffee tables for £45 my friend liked them and bought similar from West elm for £350.. I had seen the west elm one and bought a dupe

Holidays, home improvements/furniture, coffee (weirdly), handbags&fashion & restaurant recommendations are all the good water cooler chat.
I am "known" for my hotel and restaurant recommendations.

It depends what’s important to you.
Do you buy those coffees because you really enjoy them or out of habit?
Is having a house really important for you or just one those things that grown ups do?

So for me, I dont buy takeaways like this. For me it’s a waste of money on something I don’t really enjoy.
But I would spend money going to a cafe because it’s something I enjoy. And it’s getting me out of the house which I’m struggling atm (health has taken a nose dive)

I recently read a nice a book on ‘budgeting’ and two things I have kept from it was

• give each pound a reason. So know WHY you are spending that money. Is it because you are bored/anxious/habit/love it/no choice etc…
• have a budget for the month let’s say to buy coffee and stop feeling guilty about buying said coffees. So if you feel buying a coffee isn’t worth £250 a month but only lets say £100. Then stick to that but don’t feel guilty about still buying a coffee iyswim (or £250:if you feel it’s that important too!).

Bottom line is that you are the only person who can say if it’s that frivolous or not. You need to decide for yourself.

Sorry but that’s nuts. Get yourself a coffee maker and a good travel cup.

Kirstie Allsopp was ripped apart on a thread here a few weeks ago regarding her comments on young people moaning about not getting onto the property ladder but at the same time not making sacrifices to save money. You’re the perfect example of this… take out latte’s and take away food!! Before my husband and I had children we wouldn’t dream of having coffee out or getting a take away because we saved hard to get a deposit for our first home and always prioritised paying off debt. There is nothing wrong with spending £6k per annum on coffee and food if you can afford it, but this seems an insane amount of money to fritter away when you have debts!!

Actually thinking about it , I actually have 1-2 coffees out per week. So I am a member of David Lloyd ( agonised about justifying the membership but really enjoy it) and I meet my friend for a coffee once a week. It's almost £3 or maybe more for a pretty poor coffee, but I see it as socialising rather than coffee so don't count the cost. Plus go out for a friend for a walk and coffee once a week.

So I think the asking yourself what you get from buying this coffee is a good question. If it's a chance to network with your boss for example, then I'd go for it, but if it's simply being part of the herd on the coffee run then some of the suggestions of how to keep the experience but dump the cost seem helpful.

Btw the reasons you are giving about networking etc… ARE very good reasons. Even so (imo) bevause you are aware of it and know very well why you are doing so.
It might well be that in a few years time, you don’t feel like you need to keep up with the Jones as much but it sounds like you are keeping your head in your shoulders very well.
I also think that we all do what you describe to fit in. You probably don’t realise it if you are in a similar environment all the time. But having moved countries a few times, looking at what others do, copying, and generally trying to fit in ot make friends is a pretty normal thing to do.

Just want to reiterate one thing though.
Whether it’s for a health reasons (too many coffees drunk in the day/week) or for budgeting reasons, it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing. You can decide to just have fewer coffees (let’s say you only have two in the day) and still network whilst having another drink (let’s a particular posh tea).

I don’t think it’s excessive, but your repayment figures do sound like you have a lot of debt, so I would look to address that. I do a lot of this sort of thing for work, but I get to expense it as it’s a business need. Is there a manager there who could pay for you and claim back?

It does sound like a lot I buy one coffee/ cake a week for me and the children. Then a monthly fish and chips. Having totted that up and worked it out as a percentage of income it's 8% Which feels whopping. That said it feels like a treat. In your case I'd buy myself a lovely coffee machine and a couple of nice travel mugs and just reduce the amount I spend. The savings will pay for the coffee machine pretty quickly

I cut my coffee intake down to two made at home in the morning and nothing rest of day so I would never have to buy coffee out and about again!

I did the same thing in my 20s. I felt sick when I realised I could have saved it all up for a house. So I stopped buying coffees and takeout, and bought a house. Best thing I ever did.

Please tell us you are at least using a travel mug for your three cups of coffee a day, not paper cups????

That's crazy. It's the price of a decent holiday abroad each year ! I guess it depends what you earn overall though, if you can afford it and it makes you happy then go for it.

Years ago I accumulated about £8k in credit card debt. I went cold turkey on treats for about 6months and cleared it. What they don’t tell you, is you can pay money off a credit card at any time during the month, so each month I would calculate my bills and spending keep that money and pay the rest off my card, but then each day I underspent, so try to only spend £1 on lunch I’d immediately make a £2.50 credit card payment so I wouldn’t spend the money later in the month.
I cleared the debt remarkably quickly, and have never been in debt again, but also enjoy spending my money now. When I buy that coffee, or spend a silly amount on something there’s no underlying sense of guilt that I should be being responsible.
It was a really beige, bland few months, but for me it was much better than having it hanging over me for years. Kind of like ripping a plaster off.
Good luck xx

You’re not wrong OP. I’m glad the penny has dropped and you’ve realised that looking after the pennies isn’t just a quaint old fashioned saying, but a way of life for many of us.

I’m mid 50’s and still don’t waste money on unnecessary fripperies like daily takeaway coffees and regular takeaway dinners. I’ll buy fish and chips take out at the beach as a family maybe two or three times a year and stick to a budget planner to ensure I’m not wasting money on pointless crap, which I definitely did as a young twenty something.

I agree that the cost of buying a property in the south east is bonkers BUT… I lived in the East Midlands where property prices have always been much cheaper and then I moved abroad and bought a detached 4 bed house with land for the price of my 3 bed in the UK.

Yes, Property was much cheaper in the early 90’s but again my mortgage interest rate was 15% and I was in negative equity for 10 years so had to stay put. I made a grand profit of £25k when I finally moved from that house after 12 years. Plus, no big inheritance from my parents as they lived in rented accommodation. I still managed some amazing holidays abroad travelling to weird and wonderful places but I saved up for them and enjoyed planning and looking forward to them.

My DS will be going to Uni soon and there’s no spare income to cover his fees so he’ll have to work and study, same as I did. Hopefully, if I don’t have big care home fees, he can sell the house and have a lump sum when I die that can pay off his student debt and buy him a small house or flat.

I’m also hoping he will be equally sensible with his money and not fritter it away and have nothing to show for it. He certainly seems sensible so far and isn’t wanting the latest thing or buying overpriced brand named clothing.

You could always become a FIRE (financial independence, retire early) advocate.

A few years in a high paying career with minimal expenditure and careful investments and you could be set for life from late 30s/early 40s. Then you'd have no pressure to keep up and network and could pick and choose opportunities/go off and travel between contracts, or whatever you wanted really.

@TwinkleToesStrikesAgain

Please tell us you are at least using a travel mug for your three cups of coffee a day, not paper cups????

Very very good point!

I'd be tempted to try an experiment. Put aside a reasonable amount for a coffee machine at home, or one nice coffee a week and office coffee/home the rest of the time. The rest, put in a fairly aggressive stocks and shares ISA and see what you get out. I bet you'll not miss it, and you'll love what your 'coffee' fund will bring you in a few years.

@zabindya

I just had a thought. Tell me if this is a bizarre way to look at things.

There is a certain amount of "keeping up with the Joneses" which is actually useful in my corporate world. I have seen first hand in the last year or two how much of an advantage it is to be "in". Not just a networking contact but a friend, one of us, "our sort of people". (This sounds horridly social-climby but I'm just stating what I see.) I don't want to give this up for the sake of saving a few hundred quid in interest. My career opportunity came from this kind of connection.

So I don't want to give it up. But equally coffee is a very stupid expense. I'd be happy to spend £5k on a "keeping up with the Joneses" budget line item, but £5k buys a lot of spa days and ski holidays which are even better for deepening friendships. So my idea is, allocate the £5k for this, rather than more debt payments, but force myself to be thoughtful about whether the investment is actually an investment vs a habit?

Oh my god, just writing this makes me sound awful...

Why aren't you expensing if it's networking?

@topcat2014

Wouldn't it be good if you could buy coffee in supermarkets in jars or something..

To be fair what you buy in jars in supermarkets is powder that gives hot water a flavour that vaguely resembles coffee whilst delivering a massive caffeine hit.

Yes that’s a crazy amount to spend on coffee. That’s what we spend on groceries a month for two people.
If you want to continue the networking opportunities are there cheaper options than the latte, like an Americano or herbal tea? Or get the Pret subscription and steer your contacts there, there is guaranteed to be one close by if you’re in the city.

@zabindya
"But working in the City there are so many things you need to do to keep up. Brunches, drinks, coffees... I don't want to turn down the chance to network because of a £3 latte, which would have seemed ridiculously expensive to me before. But equally the same logic applies to spending £3k on a ski trip with the same people, so where does it end?"

are you SURE the networking thing is really true? I honestly don't know because its not a milieu I am familiar with.....What I would say is that I would be very careful indeed of getting into a situation where your career depends on who you socialise with and who likes you. What would happen if you had some kind of emergency and genuinely couldn't afford to "network"?

DH and I were spending a similar amount. So we bought a decent coffee machine and now it's a lot less! Scary when you add it up.

@zabindya

I just had a thought. Tell me if this is a bizarre way to look at things.

There is a certain amount of "keeping up with the Joneses" which is actually useful in my corporate world. I have seen first hand in the last year or two how much of an advantage it is to be "in". Not just a networking contact but a friend, one of us, "our sort of people". (This sounds horridly social-climby but I'm just stating what I see.) I don't want to give this up for the sake of saving a few hundred quid in interest. My career opportunity came from this kind of connection.

So I don't want to give it up. But equally coffee is a very stupid expense. I'd be happy to spend £5k on a "keeping up with the Joneses" budget line item, but £5k buys a lot of spa days and ski holidays which are even better for deepening friendships. So my idea is, allocate the £5k for this, rather than more debt payments, but force myself to be thoughtful about whether the investment is actually an investment vs a habit?

Oh my god, just writing this makes me sound awful...

I just read this and I reiterate my "be careful what you base your career on" advice. being in with the incrowd is soooooo fragile. Not the same but when my DH got his first big career opportunity the in house environment was the same and people were expected to join the company social circle in order to get on. We tried it but it was excruciating so we just didn't do it. It didn't make any difference to his promotion and it certainly didn't when a good percentage of the in crowd were imprisoned for fraud! There can be other ways of progressing.

You don’t necessarily have to kick the coffee just budget yourself.

250 a month is £12 a day over 4 weeks. (ignoring weekends) cut your coffee budget is the realistic solution.

start by only going 3 days a week or switch it up so you go for a simpler coffee through the week and a fancy one for Friday. whatever works for you.

You could easily cut that amount by half, still get your social enjoyment from it and pay debt off with what you cut out plus reducing your visits would make it feel more luxurious.

The trick to avoid lifestyle inflation is to think frugally rather than cheap.

Get a travel mug/keep cup can save you 10-50p on each coffee drink depending on the shop you use. I have a bodum one I’ve been using for a good 7yrs now. It still keeps my drinks very hot for 3 hrs. It paid for itself within a year.

Opting for a filter coffee or a cup of tea rather than a pumped up latte can easily save you another couple of pounds per drink.