Is it ok for a Manager to borrow money from a subordinate?

[Okkie]

Just that really. I could add more but will keep it simple. Is it ever OK for two adults to loan money between them? Or is it an abuse of power? Or are there any other factors which may change the answer?

[Title edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

You’re right about the grammar @Graphista sorry it’s late and has been a long day

No not me disciplining/managing

@Okkie

Sorry 😫 manager has asked subordinate if the subordinate will lend them some money

Personally I think that is awful and a definite abuse of power. Surely the manager had other choices before asking a subordinate for money and if they have run out of other options then that says everything.

I used to be asked for money by a teaching colleague on a regular basis, sometimes she'd pay me back, sometimes not.

It became awkward, I'd return to the staff room and she'd be hanging around my desk. Mortgage interest rates were high in the late 80's and I wasn't that flush myself. Very sadly her situation escalated and her house was very publicly repossessed as she lived in the same street as the college we taught at.

Just recently I was talking to an old colleague and she came up in conversation, she'd also lent her money regularly.

Yeah I would say no. If anyone has seen The pursuit of Happyness (Will Smith) he's living in a hostel with his young son and interning at a big business, literally living hand to mouth. There's a scene when the big boss asks him to lend him five dollars (or some small amount) to pay for parking and it shows Will Smith's character taking the last note out of his wallet, clearly feeling so awkward and resentful but being unable to say no. It means the difference to feeding his child for him whereas its a negligible amount to the big boss.

That shows why even 'small' amounts like a tenner wouldn't be ok.

The only possible exceptions, for me, would be if it were an occasion like forgetting your card and needing to pay for petrol and the junior employee offered without being asked, or if they were good friends outside of work.

I would say it depends.

An amount under £20 for lunch/travel fare/leaving collection/charity event. Fine but the manager needs to be squeeky clean and make sure they return the money really promptly and ask someone as close to their level as possible and ideally someone unlikely to feel pressured or awkward.

A larger amount or a longer period absolutely not suitable between work colleagues at all.

I know someone who got into a lot of trouble lending a work colleague money. The colleague was being investigated for dodgy dealings and money passing between them came to light during the investigation and put the person who was doing a good deed under suspicion.

I don’t even think a manager should as a subordinate to lend them money in the lunch/petrol example. That’s for someone to kindly offer, if they notice an issue. If they do need it they should ask a colleague or their manager. Even the request of tenner might make someone in a subordinate position feel very uncomfortable.

If someone does offer then be very open they’ll return it ASAP and do so.

*should ask

@Okkie

This is a general AIBU on lending money at work *@NumberTheory*. But I also asked if there was any other factors that would change an answer. A lot of people are saying £10/£20 is ok so I thought I would clarify to say it wasn’t a small amount

If, whenever people say "In this circumstance it could be okay." you are "clarifying" to say "No, not that sort of lending. Different lending." you aren't asking about lending in general. You must have some scenario in mind, even if it's vague, otherwise there would be nothing to "clarify".

If you were actually asking about lending in general then the response to "small amount is okay" would be - "Where's the limit, amount wise? And are there factors that affect that limit?"

No not appropriate.

I just tried to keep the op fairly neutral so as not to persuade any opinion @NumberTheory. I just wanted to find out how lending money works at workplaces other than mine.

@Okkie

Sorry 😫 manager has asked subordinate if the subordinate will lend them some money

Of course it isn't ok.

Just think about the power imbalance.
Also ... how embarrassingly unprofessional.

God no. I cannot imagine this ever happening where I work. I don't even let my team put anything on their cards if I'm around, and if they ever have to pay expenses I make sure we get them the money back virtually straightaway.

That said, I once put a flight to Singapore for a line manager on my own card when there wasn't a company card or senior person available. Got cash back on it so I wasn't bothered but she should never have let me do it, looking back. That was the tip of the inappropriate iceberg in that case.

Are you the subordinate?

I think it puts the subordinate in a very very difficult situation. It's likely they can't afford to lend anything. It's likely they wouldn't want to ask for it back. It's likely they could get better treatment in other ways e.g. rotas.

I think a manager asking for money off a subordinate he's not friends with is in a desperate situation financially. You would never ever do that unless you really had to. I would think the reason he hadn't asked his colleagues was because he'd already asked them and now they are refusing him.

Absolutely not OK. Because if subordinate doesn't want to lend money, they may feel pressure to do so or receive a poor performance review.

£100+ on more than one occasion the lender should say no, they can guarantee that sooner or later it won't be paid back.
The lender should report this person to HR particularly if the person is in a position of trust. Someone with money issues is likely to end up a target for bribery and corruption.

@Okkie

I just tried to keep the op fairly neutral so as not to persuade any opinion *@NumberTheory*. I just wanted to find out how lending money works at workplaces other than mine.

If this happened at my workplace, I'd have had the manager on a disciplinary the moment I heard of it. It's the thin end of what could easily become a highly toxic wedge.

Pun intended.

I've worked with my team for 20+ years. I'd never ask to borrow money from anyone other than if they were going to the shops - asked if I wanted anything and then offered to get me something (small) because i had no cash which I would repay ASAP.

These days I'm more than likely to put that £1 straight into thier bank account on the spot.

It sounds like a loan and not borrowing. If they just needed cash for something urgent then they could transfer the money at time its given. So sounds like a loan because they haven't actually got that money but need it.

Definitely a power thing because the employee may have felt they couldn't say no or that they would some how be unfair treated if they said no.

I'm friends with my boss and we lend and borrow money back and forth but in context it's a meal out or parking fees etc and it always evens out and done in a friendship relationship not a work one. I don't believe I'd ever be asked for a significant loan due to our work relationship where she has the greater authority.

In a.situation where there is no friendship or other mitigating factors then no, a manager shouldn't ask for a loan from a subordinate due to the difference in power. They shouldn't accept help from a subordinate either. Does depend on context though as to why this might occur.

@Okkie

I just tried to keep the op fairly neutral so as not to persuade any opinion *@NumberTheory*. I just wanted to find out how lending money works at workplaces other than mine.

Whether something is "okay" or not is different from how different workplaces handle it.

I've worked at places (all small) where it wouldn't be considered an HR matter at all unless the accusation was the manager was threatening the employee if they didn't go along with it, and places where even a request for a fiver would be considered poor judgement for a manager. None have specifically written it into policies, though.

@Okkie

I just tried to keep the op fairly neutral so as not to persuade any opinion *@NumberTheory*. I just wanted to find out how lending money works at workplaces other than mine.

But you should have given more detail in the OP as it's a very much 'it depends' type situation.

Just about everyone would agree that it's OK to borrow £5/10/20 in the forgotten money for lunch/train fare/petrol scenario, as long as it's a one off that's repaid straight away.

Likewise, just about everyone would agree that it's not OK for this to be a regular occurrence, especially if the lender has to remind the borrower about repayment.

Plus it's almost never OK to ask a colleague, especially a junior to lend them larger sums of money and this is specifically banned in many organisations.

We've all seen threads and heard stories where people have lent money 'for groceries, electricity or bus fare to the doctors' only for it to be not repaid while the borrower then goes on spend money on non essentials to a value greater than the amount borrowed.

It's not up to anyone to manage another person's personal finances or cashflow and if the person doing the borrowing has genuine financial issues they need to seek proper help rather than guilting other people into propping up their budget. Because for every person who is genuinely short, there's often far more who appear to just not be arsed to make grown up spending choices.