Is it ok for a Manager to borrow money from a subordinate?

[Okkie]

Just that really. I could add more but will keep it simple. Is it ever OK for two adults to loan money between them? Or is it an abuse of power? Or are there any other factors which may change the answer?

[Title edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

I think it depends on the amount. I have done it once or twice and felt embarrassed but it was only for about £10. It definitely isn’t something I would make a habit of and I paid them back the next day.

This is not £10/£20. More like £100+ more than one occasion. manager approached subordinate

It's not ideal. But if it were a small amount, very occasional, there was absolutely no pressure applied and it was promptly paid back without needing to be asked for then I don't think it would be a concern.

Any one of those things not being the case could quickly raise it to a serious disciplinary matter, though.

Not ok unless really good reason

One time pulling out of Euston I remembered I'd forgot to pay £100 deposit for our next team event at local restaurant. I called them and they couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t tell them my card details over the phone on a packed train (although I have heard people do this)

Phoned senior team member who paid as I transferred cash into their account

Warning bells asking someone who might feel unable to ask the cash back for money

I worked in the Civil Service for many years and borrowing from a junior member of staff was not allowed.

@Okkie

This is not £10/£20. More like £100+ more than one occasion. manager approached subordinate

If you want a general AIBU on lending money that's fine. If you want to know about a specific incident you have to describe that incident as fully as possible.

Dripping in little bits is just annoying and will just lead to a skewed thread.

I borrowed £5 a couple of times from a colleague, so I could buy a sandwich when I'd forgotten my wallet. They got it back the next day (or as soon as I remembered). But an actual loan because someone is broke? I've only ever lent one person money that way, and she was a friend before she was a colleague, and it was only a tenner anyway and she repaid it within a fortnight.

@FindmeuptheFarawaytree

£5 or £10 if they've forgotten their purse and have no lunch would be no problem, other than that it's probably not a good idea.

^this is what I came here to say.

They would both be disciplined where I worked and the manager would be sacked. My manager won’t even let me buy lunch without giving me the money first. It’s a real abuse of position.

@Okkie

This is not £10/£20. More like £100+ more than one occasion. manager approached subordinate

Why are you even asking on MN? You seem to be clutching your pearls about this a bit tightly for a third party. If you’re involved in the workplace investigation, then I’m concerned that you’re running to MN. If you’re not involved, I don’t quite understand the drama.

This is a general AIBU on lending money at work @NumberTheory. But I also asked if there was any other factors that would change an answer. A lot of people are saying £10/£20 is ok so I thought I would clarify to say it wasn’t a small amount

Definitely not okay. It abuses the power imbalance and makes the employee feel obliged to agree for fear of their job.

I suspect this would be misconduct.

Caveat: if it’s a fiver for lunch because they’ve forgotten their wallet, and a one off, and they’ve got a friendly relationship anyway, that would be different.

Why does anybody ask anything on MN @Cocomarine? I am curious as as to whether it’s reasonable to lend money at work?

God no. I loan freely to friends as they do with me but never my manager.

I had one manager who at the slightest inkling I might need cash for a coffee or something would give me money but refused to be given it back.

Agree a fiver or tenner no issue. More than that no.

When I was briefly in the civil service, it was a disciplinary offence for a staff member to borrow from someone below their grade. Possibly sackable, I can't remember.

For myself I'd say it's not OK, ever.

A 'subordinate'?

Do you work in a Victorian prison?

Explicitly forbidden in our contracts at work.

I don’t think any colleagues should be borrowing money from each other, to be honest, unless it’s a fiver for lunch or something.

Under £50 if the subordinate offers is fine. Eg if they’re at a meal out and manager doesn’t have credit card.

More than that not ok and def not ok for manager to ask.

@Horological

A 'subordinate'?

Do you work in a Victorian prison?

No it was just to explain that the person who was lending reported to manager (and not just in a different department)

The boss is asking the junior for a loan?

Nope not acceptable.

Most places I've worked this is against the rules anyway.

Quite honestly unless colleagues are VERY good friends outside of work borrowing from colleagues is usually a terrible idea

Where it's a boss asking an employee yes I'd consider that a major problem with the power dynamic and I would consider the boss inappropriate and unprofessional

but in this instance no they are not close friends outside of work

In that case absolutely not!

Bit off topic but this thread is a classic example of why grammar DOES matter!

You lend TO someone
You borrow FROM someone

If the manager forgets his wallet and asks to borrow some money for lunch or petrol I think that’s fine.

I disagree - if they're cognitively able enough to be a manager they can sort this kinda cock up out themselves! Either go hungry, make arrangements with family/friends NOT subordinates or find another solution.

At worst ask THEIR boss for a loan!

The subordinate will feel obligated to say yes unless they absolutely don't have the money on them and then they will feel guilty and awkward.

Even a half decent boss would NEVER put a subordinate in that position!

it’s been highlighted as a whistleblowing issue

That rather suggests this is tip of the iceberg!

This is not £10/£20. More like £100+ more than one occasion. manager approached subordinate

Wow! That sounds more like financial abuse/misconduct!

There's NO possible good reason to borrow those amounts!

Is the subordinate vulnerable in any other way?

This calls to mind a situation I became aware of one place I worked where one colleague kept borrowing money off another colleague, the lender had a learning disability and part of it was unusual generosity of spirit which the borrowing colleague was "testing" apparently  when it all came out borrowing colleague was sacked for financial misconduct and wasn't able to get another job for quite some time (quite rightly!)

@Horological "subordinate" still very much in use in civil service, military etc

Totally unacceptable op.

I sincerely hope it's not your job to discipline/manage such behaviour as you're coming here to ask, but then there seem to be rather a lot of managers who don't have the training or aptitude and come asking on mn.

Can’t you just say what the situation is/was in its entirety? What happened etc?

Anything beyond lunch money/train fare levels is unprofessional and morally wrong, if not an outright conduct issue.

The manager approaching the same colleague for £100+ multiple times is absolutely a whistleblowing issue. It is a huge abuse of power.

Depends on the amount??

My lovely assistant subbed me £3 last week but I wouldn't class that as a loan. If I needed more I would be searching anywhere except one of my direct reports!!!