Talking to manager's manager / going above your line manager

[Quirkyme]

Evening,

Has anyone gone above their manager and raised concerns about serious issues, after insufficient action/nothing changing after spoken to their manager first numerous times?

What was the outcome for you - was it worse with your manager after, or a successful outcome for you regarding the concerns raised and issues?

All experiences welcome.

I have done this and a meeting has been arranged for later on this week, however, having spoke to a friend, they've advised not to do this because "my manager will make my life hell"? (Or at the least has the power to after this)

Do you work in a large organization or a small one. In smaller ones, it’s easier to get away with vendettas. In a larger organizations, the policies and procedures make it harder for your manager or take it out on you because you escalated.
Did you document when you raised these concerns to your manager? What reply did you get? Did they make any effort to address these concerns? You will need to show a good record of letting your manager deal with the issues you raised. If the issues are impacting customers, then it’s even more important to escalate and any organization with sound processes will thank you.

@sst1234

Do you work in a large organization or a small one. In smaller ones, it’s easier to get away with vendettas. In a larger organizations, the policies and procedures make it harder for your manager or take it out on you because you escalated. Did you document when you raised these concerns to your manager? What reply did you get? Did they make any effort to address these concerns? You will need to show a good record of letting your manager deal with the issues you raised. If the issues are impacting customers, then it’s even more important to escalate and any organization with sound processes will thank you.

I work in a larger organisation.. to be fair, now you've said that... the friend who said this has always worked in smaller organisations.

And yes before arranging the meeting, upon contacting manager's manager, they asked if I had spoken to manager first (although I did say this when approaching them in the first instance) and I further stated all the times (with rough dates I had met with and also followed up with my manager in writing after meetings)

Avoid. No good ever comes of this situation - you can unfortunately end up in the wrong through no fault of your own. If you can't engage with your manager, do you have a union?

It is always a risk but if you feel you have no choice then you have to take that risk.

@DracarysThis

Avoid. No good ever comes of this situation - you can unfortunately end up in the wrong through no fault of your own. If you can't engage with your manager, do you have a union?

The meeting is already arranged... friend has suggest that I cancel

@ILoveAllRainbowsx

It is always a risk but if you feel you have no choice then you have to take that risk.

I deffo feel this way , and accept the risk

Worked in both small and large organisations. Had two situations, it didn't go well in either.

Sorry. But that's because on reflection, my line managers were narcissistic manipulative nasty POS, and I shouldn't have gone up against them.

Where I work now, I love absolutely everyone, except my line manager. She's been there 20 years, and no one likes her, and she is awful to all of us (she line manages a team) but no one will challenge her as she is so manipulative, and would absolutely hold a grudge/make life hell.

Tough one. I have done this but only when I was 100% confident and in the right about what I was saying. Your managers manager will back them and probably give them the opportunity to weasel out of whatever they have done / not done. Be prepared for alot of bullshit and your manager scrutinising everything you do.
Thing is, you should be able to do this without worrying about repercussions. It's so wrong that it's not this way. Good luck

I did, took a while and a lot of evidence but things did get changed. And I now have very little to do with previous manager (was moved at my request).

We are unfailingly polite when we see each other; them because they don't want to show what a bully they were and me because...well, I got what I wanted so I fucking won

It’s generally a hugely bad idea to make a complaint about your line manager. Sometimes it can’t be avoided but be wary op

Another perspective maybe .. I’ve been the senior manager and was really grateful when a member of the team approached me to tell me about something one of my managers wasn’t dealing with appropriately. If no one ever says anything it’s very hard to change things as you only get the perspective of the line manager.

I've done this once only in my career, many years ago. I can't go into details but it was taken extremely seriously and the outcome proved that my concerns were justified.

No, but I've known of a few situations at work where colleagues tried to do this and whilst the senior manager acknowledged the managers shortcomings, they ultimately didn't really address the issue with the manager. More applied a plaster and moved on. It then made for a difficult team environment.

It really depends what the issue is. If it's undeniably, categorically, bad behaviour of the manager, then I think you've done the right thing and most others will think so too. Even the manager.

But if you're frustrated by their actions or inactions and actually it's a process/structural issue rather than one with them, then you'll get nowhere. Also if it's personal to them, ie based on their attitude, professionalism etc rather than something objective, it'll be harder.

You've already called the meeting. Cancelling it wouldn't help now. Good luck, I hope positive change results!

I haven’t personally, but I’m not surprised to hear from other posters that it doesn’t go down well. I’ve spoken to my own manager about issues I’ve had with another worker at his insistence and that’s been pointless and absolutely just exacerbated the issue even though he knows she’s a troublemaker.
It’s so sad to know rightly speaking up just ends up costing you. What a world we live in.
I hope it goes well for your, OP. I’m sure it works out for some.

@whysonasty

I haven’t personally, but I’m not surprised to hear from other posters that it doesn’t go down well. I’ve spoken to my own manager about issues I’ve had with another worker at his insistence and that’s been pointless and absolutely just exacerbated the issue even though he knows she’s a troublemaker. It’s so sad to know rightly speaking up just ends up costing you. What a world we live in. I hope it goes well for your, OP. I’m sure it works out for some.

Can I ask how you manage that situation with that colleague now - were the issues you raised in relation to the colleague not doing their job and thereby stopping you from doing yours?

And how do you feel and manage the situation with your manager - seeing as he didn't do anything about it?

Sounds similar to the situation I'm in

I did this when I got a new manager. Communication was poor, issues not getting resolved, making my life (personal as well as work) hard. Went above them and it worked a treat. We actually ended up having a really good relationship. Felt genuinely very sad when I handed in my notice for other reasons a year later.

Was in a large organisation that would have been dragged through the coals if they didn't sort me out.

@afizzysweet

I did this when I got a new manager. Communication was poor, issues not getting resolved, making my life (personal as well as work) hard. Went above them and it worked a treat. We actually ended up having a really good relationship. Felt genuinely very sad when I handed in my notice for other reasons a year later.

Was in a large organisation that would have been dragged through the coals if they didn't sort me out.

Good to hear - I'm glad it worked out for you.

Yeah my organisation is similar to yours

Is there a whistle blowers policy. You should find it and read it.

@DaphneSprucesPippasClack

Is there a whistle blowers policy. You should find it and read it.

Hi,

Thanks for your comment, I actually just had a read of the policy on the organisation website just now after seeing your reply, and it seems pretty straightforward.

I was under the impression that people tend to whistleblow upon leaving organisations though?

Happy to, OP.

My boss has form for claiming to give a shit but being all talk. Another poster mentioned the old chuck a plaster on it approach which is what he does. As do most of those with power at my work which is why it’s so toxic. He brought the situation up with the colleague. I was reluctant to go into anything knowing it would go straight back to her and nothing positive would result but he insisted. She’s a bully, humiliates and undermines other women, excludes those not in her clique, makes it impossible to do your job as she refuses to communicate vital information and keeps changing the goalposts without telling certain people, lies, and is completely unethical in a way that affects not just the workplace, but the broader community. The whole shebang. She’s repulsive.

Anyway, it didn’t matter what I brought up with my boss, he gaslit and suggested it was all in my head (despite admitting others having the exact same issues with her and me giving him direct evidence), laughed things off saying it’s just her “self-confessed bull in a china shop” personality, actually praised her for her capability etc etc. He then had the nerve to tell me to be brutally honest, promising it wouldn’t get back to her. The pair of them sit and gossip all day. I KNEW it would get back to her and as she’s such an idiot her whole demeanour changing since the chat gave him away anyway.

I’m incapable to faking an interest in the lives of people I find toxic, so I remain polite and professional with the woman and my boss and that’s it. I grey rock while I look elsewhere. It’s sad, because another colleague who has been burned by her came into the company strong and no-nonsense, yet she’s been made small by all this and completely submitted to it to the point where she shares jokes with her and compliments her to stay on her good side. I’m just not capable. Turns my stomach.

I know my boss would rather me leave than grow a set and actually address the real issue, but he’s a weak little man so the cycle continues as nauseum. The thing is, he clearly doesn’t realise she throws him under the bus behind his back too so he’s just shooting himself in the foot.

I hope your workplace isn’t as toxic as mine. And that people actually listen and care when you address the issues. Let us know, OP. And good luck!

@whysonasty

Happy to, OP.

My boss has form for claiming to give a shit but being all talk. Another poster mentioned the old chuck a plaster on it approach which is what he does. As do most of those with power at my work which is why it’s so toxic. He brought the situation up with the colleague. I was reluctant to go into anything knowing it would go straight back to her and nothing positive would result but he insisted. She’s a bully, humiliates and undermines other women, excludes those not in her clique, makes it impossible to do your job as she refuses to communicate vital information and keeps changing the goalposts without telling certain people, lies, and is completely unethical in a way that affects not just the workplace, but the broader community. The whole shebang. She’s repulsive.

Anyway, it didn’t matter what I brought up with my boss, he gaslit and suggested it was all in my head (despite admitting others having the exact same issues with her and me giving him direct evidence), laughed things off saying it’s just her “self-confessed bull in a china shop” personality, actually praised her for her capability etc etc. He then had the nerve to tell me to be brutally honest, promising it wouldn’t get back to her. The pair of them sit and gossip all day. I KNEW it would get back to her and as she’s such an idiot her whole demeanour changing since the chat gave him away anyway.

I’m incapable to faking an interest in the lives of people I find toxic, so I remain polite and professional with the woman and my boss and that’s it. I grey rock while I look elsewhere. It’s sad, because another colleague who has been burned by her came into the company strong and no-nonsense, yet she’s been made small by all this and completely submitted to it to the point where she shares jokes with her and compliments her to stay on her good side. I’m just not capable. Turns my stomach.

I know my boss would rather me leave than grow a set and actually address the real issue, but he’s a weak little man so the cycle continues as nauseum. The thing is, he clearly doesn’t realise she throws him under the bus behind his back too so he’s just shooting himself in the foot.

I hope your workplace isn’t as toxic as mine. And that people actually listen and care when you address the issues. Let us know, OP. And good luck!

Hello thank you for sharing. It's uncanny how similar the situation is with yours.

So how do you deal with the things you can't do work wise, due to her not doing her job? Just don't do them and make a record of them or?

And thank you for the well wishes lovely :)

You’re welcome! I know it’s a shite state of affairs so I’m rooting for you.

When she doesn’t communicate things with me I bring it up publicly. Every time. Because she loves to humiliate me in front of our team, she’ll always try to embarrass me for not doing my job in front of them. Initially I would get confused and assume I had missed something. When I finally clocked what she was doing I’d say - “Which email was that, Karen? Oh, I see. You failed to CC me in on it” or “That was not communicated to me, Karen. I can’t know what has not been communicated to me.”

It means people get uncomfortable and she hates me even more, but it makes her accountable.

How close is the manager to their manager? If they have known each other a long time and the senior manager trusts the manager, it is far easier for the manager to paint you as a troublemaker and then make your life difficult.

If you want to raise it, it better be serious enough to warrant the manager getting dismissed under the firm's policies. If not, why bother to bring a heap of pain on yourself, including a toxic atmosphere with your manager?

What do you hope to achieve by going over your manager's head?

OP, you should keep your appointment. When discussing the situation stick to the facts, give examples (with dates if possible), discuss the impact the actions have on the team, and keep it constructive, offering possible solutions for what you want to see changed, and focus on the actions, not the person. For example, ‘rosters need to be communicated a month in advance. Because this is failing to happen on at least 50% of occasions it means that it is really difficult to schedule workload planning, so there are continuous delays to production. This has a negative impact of customer satisfaction and we had 6 complaints last week. This, as you can see, is wasting a lot of time for everyone as we’re having to deal with the complaints, and it’s causing a great deal of stress amongst the team. It would be good to get a commitment to make sure they were done on time and for that action to be monitored to ensure it is maintained’.

@whysonasty

You’re welcome! I know it’s a shite state of affairs so I’m rooting for you.

When she doesn’t communicate things with me I bring it up publicly. Every time. Because she loves to humiliate me in front of our team, she’ll always try to embarrass me for not doing my job in front of them. Initially I would get confused and assume I had missed something. When I finally clocked what she was doing I’d say - “Which email was that, Karen? Oh, I see. You failed to CC me in on it” or “That was not communicated to me, Karen. I can’t know what has not been communicated to me.”

It means people get uncomfortable and she hates me even more, but it makes her accountable.

Honestly the situations are so similar from what you've shared, - this individual has now started removing me from email threads that I've been c'cd highlighting her not doing her job, thereby making me unable to do mine, and in the last few days has started removing me, so I'm not informed about the service users she's been putting at risk by her lack of actions. Which I need to be for my role.