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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That the Gov & Post Office have been horrendous in the response to the Post Office scandal?

106 replies

FavouritePi · 20/02/2022 17:40

Listening to what happened on Radio 4 - people committed suicide, others imprisoned and gone bankrupt over shortfalls the Post Office had claimed were occuring but CEOs had been aware of a system issue years before. Compensation was then only menial in relation to how this has impacted people financially and mentally.

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 21/02/2022 15:14

250 prosecutions in 4 years Shock

How could the lawyers not be saying 'this is massively out of line with previous experience'?

BigGreen · 21/02/2022 15:15

Yanbu, and the fact that this is coming into focus now with all the other scandals - PM, civil service, royals, the Met, even credit Suisse in the paper today. It feels like none other of our overlords are kind or decent people. Utterly rotten.

londonmummy1966 · 21/02/2022 15:21

@stilldumdedumming

And told them losses weren't happening elsewhere- when they clearly were. I understand how things get cocked up and individual officers will believe what the system is telling them, but equally there were people who must have known the shortfalls were not right, people ignored that and some downright lied, and then the response has been slow and too little. There are certain people who should have trouble sleeping at night.
I want to know why The Law Society is not investigating the lawyers employed by the Post Office legal department who must have know just how many sub-postmasters were being prosecuted but carried on bringing them to Court. I didn't think being employed rather than in practice allowed you to ignore your duty to the legal system.
FavouritePi · 21/02/2022 16:03

@Lockdownbear

Totally disgusting.

We're the Post Masters tied into a long term contract?
Most Post Offices are a corner of a bigger shop. If the PO was loosing money what stopped them from closing it, pulling out of the service?

They did close up but by that time were told they'd been fraudulently taking money that was missing from the books and were desperately trying to pay it back.

I think the PO sold on one to another owner for £1 after the previous owner got into thousands of debt. That was the one where it happened to the new owner too.

OP posts:
Snowdon564 · 21/02/2022 16:07

It’s awful, I’m sure one woman went to prison pregnant and then couldn’t be with her child after it was born.

The whole thing is awful!

SuitcaseOfWhine · 21/02/2022 16:10

YANBU it is outrageous that nobody has been held to account.

CloudPop · 21/02/2022 16:12

It's absolutely outrageous. I can't believe some of the stories. And why are they still investigating - surely they should just be agreeing the size of the compensation? Peoples lives were ruined. It's beyond scandalous.

ChristmasCrackered · 21/02/2022 16:18

It’s so heart-breaking to hear the stories, hundreds of lives destroyed.

I find it terrifying that something like this could happen and be covered up for so long.

HashtagShitShop · 21/02/2022 16:38

Isn't it amazing what those with money, power and top lawyers can get away with compared to those poor poor innocent postmasters/mistresses and families still without compensation for what they went through.)

One rule for them and another for Joe public.

Wasnt the woman at the helm also high up in the church at the same time?

FavouritePi · 23/02/2022 02:14

Yes, what upsets me is those involved and the government who would responsible for fixing this will expect it to go away and just be brushed under the carpet.

OP posts:
Svalberg · 23/02/2022 03:29

The journalist on the local radio station who started investigating it was Nick Wallis, who also did the podcasts. He's live tweeted as much as he's allowed from all the court cases.
There's a book that he's written called The Great Post Office Scandal, and he's diverting profit from this into some hardship funding for the wronged postmasters.

CousinKrispy · 23/02/2022 06:06

"Wasnt the woman at the helm also high up in the church at the same time?"

Oh she went on to head up an NHS trust in London and is also a priest. The hypocrisy is disgusting.

Everyone responsible for this fuckup needs to be prosecuted and proper compensation provided to the victims.

CousinKrispy · 23/02/2022 06:06

Paula Vennells was CEO at the time.

Polyanthus2 · 23/02/2022 06:29

Everyone responsible for this fuckup needs to be prosecuted and proper compensation provided to the victims.

With the UK as it is today I bet this doesn't happen - NO ONE is ever responsible for anything - but they still take the money. We are a corrupt country.

overthethamesfromyou · 23/02/2022 07:06

The link between government and Fujistsu is explained below: apologies for DM link

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10529489/Post-Office-chiefs-FINALLY-sue-Fujitsu-scandal-jailed-postmasters.html

Gillian Keegan, a minister, is married to Michael Keegan, the ex CEO, who now advises the Cabinet Office

PearPickingPorky · 23/02/2022 07:25

I listened to the podcast a couple of years ago. I found it shocking and very upsetting.

It's unbelievable how so many have been able to get away with it.

Muckymaisonette · 23/02/2022 07:32

I hate it that the government/post office are basically waiting for people to die so they don’t have to pay compensation (as for Windrush scandal)

wombat1a · 23/02/2022 07:38

The thing is though in nearly all cases they were in fact 100% guilty of what they were (cleverly) charged with. Nearly all of them admitted they tried to make up the losses from their own pocket to begin with and so committed false accounting. Many were charged with that and were advised to plead guilty because they were and would be found guilty anyway and so would get a smaller fine.

How it got that far is the scandal and is disgusting and those who decided to prosecute need to be held accountable.

ProfessorSlocombe · 23/02/2022 07:47

@StoneofDestiny

I hope these people or their families get enough compensation to start their lives again. They have been through hell, made pariahs in their own communities and lost their reputations and occupation. Of course some have died or taken their own lives - but their families should be compensated to the full. Money won't make up for it, but it will send a gigantic message to these companies that human beings matter over profit.
It depends if they are innocent enough. The bar for compensation for wrongful convictions has been raised considerably the past few years.

Also don't forget that you have to pay for your board and lodging in prison out of your compensation. Presumably if you were imprisoned in a fancy jail you could end up owing money to the Home Office.

This case appears to be following the "Windrush" strategy of hoping a lot of people die before they come up for redress.

bellabasset · 23/02/2022 08:24

It's heartbreaking to hear those stories, they were quick enough to accuse, not so quick to compensate those who were wrongly accused. One woman had notice of being investigated on her daughters wedding day. People were intimidated into confessing to something they didn't understand.

FavouriteFortnight · 23/02/2022 08:37

Also don't forget that you have to pay for your board and lodging in prison out of your compensation. Presumably if you were imprisoned in a fancy jail you could end up owing money to the Home Office.

Sorry WHAT? Shock

rubbishatballet · 23/02/2022 08:45

I've just listened to the podcast and too found it completely chilling - the postmasters were even thrown under the bus at the select committee by their own union!

FiveShelties · 23/02/2022 08:57

It was shocking, the podcasts are so sad and it is amazing how the story came out.

People lost their homes, their reputation, their business and the PO knew there was a problem as did Fujitsu - absolutely dreadful. They were completely let down by everyone, even their own Union.

Polyanthus2 · 23/02/2022 08:59

Many were Asian - I'm sure there was racism in this too

Iamthewombat · 23/02/2022 09:25

@jcyclops

There is a lot of blame to go around. In some cases I am disgusted at the juries sitting in the criminal cases. Read this carefully and ask yourself if you were a juror and heard this, could you return a guilty verdict beyond reasonable doubt.

This quotation is from the judge's summing up in a 2010 case against a sub-postmaster:
“There is no direct evidence of her taking any money… She adamantly denies stealing. There is no CCTV evidence. There are no fingerprints or marked bank notes or anything of that kind. There is no evidence of her accumulating cash anywhere else or spending large sums of money or paying off debts, no evidence about her bank accounts at all. Nothing incriminating was found when her home was searched.”
The only evidence was a shortfall of cash compared to what the Post Office’s Horizon computer system said should have been in the branch.

The jury returned a guilty verdict, and the pregnant sub-postmaster was sentenced to 15-months for stealing £74,000

And this, from another poster:

it was followed by this question from the judge: “Do you accept the prosecution case that there is ample evidence before you to establish that Horizon is a tried and tested system in use at thousands of post offices for several years, fundamentally robust and reliable?” It was almost like he was recognising no evidence as far as the defendant was concerned, but then directing the jury to deliver a verdict based on the guilt of the system, not the defendant. If this is how it happened, I can understand how a jury found her guilty, based on the direction they were given.

The problem is that most (not all) juries aren’t clever or knowledgeable enough to form a sensible view on complex fraud cases like this.

The judge was telling the jury that they had to decide whether the prosecution’s case - which was that Horizon was robust and infallible - was solid. That was the fundamental question, so I don’t see a problem with the direction he or she gave.

The difficulty is, if you have a bunch of average people sitting on a jury, how are they supposed to have the insight or experience to know that computer systems can be full of holes, or only as good as the people writing the software?

Generally speaking, they won’t. Computer says no (or computer said yes, in this case). If you had a jury of accountants, criminal solicitors, academics and software engineers, it would have been very different, because those people are either trained to question statements and examine evidence, or they are subject matter experts. You don’t get many of those people sitting on juries though. They might be called, but I suspect (but don’t know) that quite a few opt out.

I think that for certain types of trial, we should have juries chosen from a subset of the population who can understand the subject matter.