Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Child maintenance

467 replies

Lalala1 · 20/02/2022 14:35

Posting here for traffic!

The amount of threads on mn surrounding child maintenance I’ve noticed there’s completely opposite opinions on it.
Some find the way it’s calculated fair some don’t.
Some say it doesn’t cover everything and “certain things should be split” out with cms.
Some say people get too much because they only get lower and are “greedy ex wives” so they should be grateful.
Some say the rules around calculations are wrong and should be changed.

So I’m curious if you were in charge of cms what would/should it be?
How should it be calculated?
Should it cover everything or not?
How would it or could it be changed to be fair for all children?
Or
Is the way it is set up and conducted fine as it is?

Just putting this for vote

YABU- cms is fine as it is no change
YANBU - cms should be changed and how?

OP posts:
Starseeking · 21/02/2022 19:28

Fathers who don't pay voluntarily should have the money deducted directly from their bank accounts via a court order. It's not enough to deduct from their employer, as too many of them go self-employed to try and dodge it.

Failing that, they should be denied access to things like leaving the country, renewing passports, MOT, car tax, driving licence, basically they should be restricted from anything that impacts their ability to go about their daily lives, in the same way not paying impacts the mother of their DC.

ChocolateMassacre · 21/02/2022 19:28

If parents hire a nanny/babysitter for their children, they pay at least £12 per hour plus all expenses.

An NRP is essentially using the RP as childcare for the children. This prevents the RP from doing other things with that time.

The NRP should have to make a payment to the RP to compensate them for their time. Maybe not the full nanny rate, but something.

So CM should cover (i) half the child's reasonable expenses, and (ii) a 'childcare' payment to the RP to compensate them for childcare provided on behalf of the NRP. This childcare payment could be linked to the age of the child - so higher for under-5s, lower for school-age children and it stops at secondary school age when children can presumably be left alone at home.

Lalala1 · 21/02/2022 19:29

@HoleyMoley5

When it comes to child maintenance it’s the NRP needs to house the children also electric/gas/food etc yet there’s some People on here who argue that “ their home isn’t the children’s home as they are hardly here they live with mum and “visit” here therefore they don’t need a room/space,possessions etc” it’s contradictory

Obviously not everyone thinks this way. There will always be some people who contradict themselves on MN about any subject. But poster's here aren't just one individual so unless you've seen the same poster make both of your points, it's not really proof of anything.

I'm a step parent but I absolutely don't think my step children are just visiting or this isn't their home. They have a bedroom here, clothes, books, games consoles, uniform, bikes etc... They are certainly not just thrown on an airbed in the home office. But yes, all of the above is a cost to us as well, we, like their Mum, have to pay for a house big enough for them to have their own rooms etc... They do live more nights with their Mum so of course my husband makes a contribution toward that but it is right, in our case, to say that we also have to provide most of the same things as their Mum does too.

And most posters on MN think that is right (understandably) so why shouldn't it be acknowledged?

I never said all NRPs and all stepmums and yes I have seen same MNs saying both things I’ve stated on different posts granted not all stepmums the same as not all NRPs . My point was the ones that do say both contradict themselves which other pp have said also. In your circumstance that isn’t the case like you have said.
OP posts:
Starseeking · 21/02/2022 19:30

I'd also make these non-payers pay half childcare costs on top of maintenance. It's not fair that the mother had to find this cost herself which can be £1,000 if she wants to work, while the dad can pay a paltry amount in "maintenance" and do what he likes!

Graphista · 21/02/2022 21:17

YANBU it needs a major overhaul or rather rebuilding from foundations up

1 deduct at source - the majority of nrps are paye no reason it cannot be deducted this way. This would ensure payments are collected and reduce admin costs significantly

2 close the self employed loooholes - this would likely also lead to discovering tax cheats!

3 have the minimum be a set basic minimum - to cover 50% of essential basic costs (food, clothes, housing, energy usage, water), higher earning nrps can pay an additional amount based on a percentage similar to now.

4 the amounts need to at the very least inc 50% of childcare - while dc are under 12 or if disabled dc then while they still need personal care outside any school hours if nrp doesn’t provide half the childcare during working hours inc holiday cover

5 non payers MUST be dealt with swiftly and smartly. The current cms is pretty toothless a new agency needs to be created preferably with the same level of "bite" as hmrc and council tax currently has. Fines, impact on credit history, removal of passports, driving licence etc frankly I'd allow the money to be removed from their bank accounts!

6 I would not have deductions for having the dc overnight unless they are having them at least 3 nights a week - this is being abused by many nrps

7 Reducing CM if you live with another woman with children - or if you have another child should be stopped.
Men should pay for their children regardless of who they go on to be with.

Yes! Absolutely

8 Apply the 2 child tax credit limit to nrps as well as Rps! (Actually I'd abolish that altogether it's barbaric but if we must have it then it should apply to the deadbeat dads as well as the abandoned mums and dc! )

The biggest change required is a whole societal one.

Agreed

It needs to become socially unacceptable to not pay cm - a public broadcasting campaign with sm support would really work to start this

SleepingStandingUp · 21/02/2022 21:23

[quote QuestionableDanceMoves]@SleepingStandingUp but why should the lifestyle choices of the NRP (having more kids) have a financial implication for the RP?
The RP doesn’t get a say in whether the NRP has more kids or moves in with someone who already has kids but does have what little maintenance they may get reduced.
That’s not a fair system.[/quote]
So if the Mom gets pregnant by a new chap, and that means she has less money to go on her existing children, something the Dad has had no say in, so you propose that her financial contribution to them is protected? Should we be saying we'll you just have to make the baby Daddy pay for everything because it isn't fair that you might have to cut one of their clubs or buy less snacks or buy them new clothes more often?
How does it work if it's 50/50, how do you ensure that Dad spends exactly the same amount of the older kids than he did before the triplets arrived given he's not handing it over to his ex?

Theunamedcat · 21/02/2022 21:27

If mom gets pregnant by the new chap the new chap pays for his own kids surely?

Graphista · 21/02/2022 21:30

This was one of the things that made me laugh about furlough.

So many guys putting the minimum they could on the books so they could give less to their kids were royalty fucked by their own scam.

I genuinely laughed out loud when I saw that on the news - mainly as I had at least 2 friends with exes of this type. Right on cue they apparently lost their shit! one even expected her to sub him at this time - I shit you not! She laughed in his face

If parents weren't separated it would be 'normal' for all income streams to be used to benefit the children so why should the source of the income make any difference?

Absolutely

And the debt wouldn't die - it would come from their pension or lottery win/inheritance.

Yes agree with this

You know what? If cm was changed in the ways we're all saying I bet men would be MUCH more careful regarding contraception too! There'd be a lot fewer unplanned dc (which yes is 50% mums responsibility too)

Coming from the generation that reached age of consent during the aids crisis I am ASTOUNDED how lax younger people are with sexual health and contraception. I've posted on several threads where op has started out claiming contraception WAS in place and failed only for it to transpire later in the thread that they weren't being as careful as they claimed!

We also need a public campaign educating on marriage v cohabitation making it abundantly clear that there is no such thing as common law marriage

Graphista · 21/02/2022 21:31

@maiafawnly if it were deducted via hmrc there'd be no benefit for him to be job hopping and even if he changed jobs it would kick in same as income tax

@ChiselandBits that's my experience too that the men/nrps that don't pay cm are also those with little to no contact with dc by their choice

At present, none, because the status quo suits the (male) power base in all parties far too well.

Too true

There should be links between the various government departments to assist CMS in collecting.
Turn up at the airport to fly abroad and your passport scan reveals arrears? Can’t go until they are cleared.

Car rego office shows purchase of new vehicle all whilst you say you have no income for the year? Automatic tax audit

I'd agree with that - I think deducting via paye would mean whatever agency was overseeing would have more time and resources to pursue the rest of the non payers

Any 50-50 order in court states that this includes costs of clothing, clubs, etc and is enforced.

Yes from what I've seen in supposed 50/50 setups the fathers STILL don't provide clothes,school equipment etc AND don't cover when the kids are off sick even if it's on their day!

@arethereanyleftatall Then you clearly aren't frequenting the step parenting boards where certain 2nd partners/wives frequently bemoan the "huge" amounts pittance their partner/husband is having to pay in cm I can assure you myself and others see them and are astonished at the cold hearted entitled attitudes of some there. They don't want "their" money going to another woman's dc

And there are even some 1st wives/partners who are jealous that others get cm/more cm than they do and think those getting/trying to get more are "greedy" when we should be presenting a United front and making ALL nrps pay and pay realistic amounts

Graphista · 21/02/2022 21:31

and uni well.. no responsibility there either.

Worse - stepfathers are expected to cover this. No! The child's actual father should do so

Most often, the RP goes without to make up the difference, so she ends up contributing to the "new" family. How can that possibly be right?

Exactly

CM should be calculated before salary sacrifice to stop people using this as a means to reduce their payments

Yes agree with this too

Cars clamped for non payment the clamp should read non payment of child support in big letters

Ohhhh I like this idea! Ex would have HATED This both the lack of his car AND the public shaming aspects it would absolutely have worked in motivating him to pay!

I discovered at one point that he'd told ow/new partner (a former friend of mine) and his parents that he was not only paying cm but more than he "had to" - he wasn't paying anything at all at this stage. This was a long time ago so paper bank statements still normal, I photocopied my bank statements and gave them to ow and his parents!

Funnily enough the next month he started paying SOMETHING

He never paid in full/consistently but in the early days my contacting his CO (while he was still in army) and his parents usually prompted at least some money coming my way

Lets not start on clothes - whihc seem to disappear all the time.

I had that crap too! Seems to be pretty common

@Orangello where is your home country?

@AlmostAJillSandwich can he have the children while his ex works?

When I first split from ex the rules at that time were unless you were fleeing dv - and could prove it - if you got benefits the amount of cm he was SUPPOSED to be paying was deducted whether he paid it or not. This was supposedly because "not enough single mums were claiming cm through Csa" when actually what was happening of course was nrps not PAYING

At this time my ex paid zero but was supposed to pay £40 a week - that meant I was £160 a month short and resulted in my needing to go without food, clothes etc so that my child didn't!

Needs must applies to Rps why shouldn't it apply to nrps too?

It's complex though because people have children... don't look after them and then go and start a new family! It's a vicous cycle.

Largely BECAUSE there are no consequences for abandoning the children from the earlier relationship/s

@Poll4 I see no reason why the lower earning nrp shouldn't still make a fair contribution yes based on their income BUT also based on the realistic minimum costs of raising a child- still their dc too. The child will benefit from having a higher earning rp but the nrp is still responsible too

Why should the rp subsidise their ex by the nrp not being expected to contribute

Surely the gov can cross reference and see that she was claiming as a single parent and he was paying bills elsewhere.

They could also check council tax data and electoral roll

That's slightly unfair. Exes new DP has no responsibility towards my dc. My new DP did.

It's very unfair

Why the double standards? - patriarchy! Especially under a Tory govt with a pm who's a deadbeat dad himself!!

He pulls his weight in other ways tho and as he's hardly in work these days does all the childcare.

That's fair enough if he's contributing in terms of time to the value of what he's not contributing in money - but most nrps won't do that

I can’t help feeling that children are not at the heart of the current way CM is calculated

Of course not - because children are an extension of women and men are prioritised in our society

@AndAsIfByMagic in a family where there's been no separation whether to have another child and therefore have less money for existing children is a JOINT decision by both of those responsible in a separated family unilateral decisions that negatively impact on the people with zero power to even influence those decisions shouldn't be rewarded

Having another child at all is a choice

To say an innocent child is less entitled to support than its sibling is vile

And you've failed to see your mistake/the irony here in that this is EXACTLY what happens to the INNOCENT child/ren from the earlier relationship under the current system - they are expected to receive A LOT LESS support than their new sibling - is that fair?

Of course not!

Oh - and my family is not "broken" thank you

The NRP needs to be looming at their finances, including the amount of child support and deciding if they can afford another child based in that

Exactly

the NRP's child support will get used on new children too.

Nonsense! Certainly not under the current system as it's rarely enough to cover 50% of 1st child's basics!

Why do people think it is ok for the first born children to have priority over subsequent children’s quality of life?

That's not what we're saying

We're saying the 1st born shouldn't be "demoted" to favour subsequent children - which is very much what happens now!

there are some (not all) women who lie about birth control.

If a man doesn't want to be a father he should be using condoms/get a vasectomy responsibility for contraception is on them BOTH

My dd was very much planned by us both, it's not stopped him being a deadbeat bastard!

The NRP should not be having more kids if they cannot do so without maintaining their existing obligations - you don't ring up the council and ask for a reduction in council tax, or mortgage or ask for % off your shopping at Tesco because you have to buy baby food now too.

Hear hear!

@IstayedForTheFeminism - but if he's already not paying you're not losing by him losing his job as a consequence of not paying!

And frankly if the consequences mean he'd lose his job then the likelihood is he would be motivated to pay!

too many NRPS, including my ex seem to be under the impression that 100% of an RPs income should be used up on the child and any evidence that the RP is spending on themselves is seen as wasting "their" money and that they don't "need" the CMS.

So true

Graphista · 21/02/2022 21:33

If mom gets pregnant by the new chap the new chap pays for his own kids surely?

Plus certainly under the current system most of the time the nrp isn't paying anywhere near 50% of first child's costs and the rp and the Rps new partner are making up the difference!

ChiselandBits · 21/02/2022 21:34

If an NRP has serious and genuine doubts about how their money is being spent they would be very welcome to put measures in place to be the RP, or 50/50. That might include doing what most RPs do and tailoring employment, location, childcare and social life to allow for the child. Funny how many of them actually don't do that when it really comes to it. Much easier to bitch and snipe from the sidelines.

SleepingStandingUp · 21/02/2022 21:35

@Theunamedcat

If mom gets pregnant by the new chap the new chap pays for his own kids surely?
But that isn't what happens in reality. How many women would say look I'm pregnant but I'm not putting a penny towards the kid. It's your responsibility . I have kids, and I can't possibly pay a penny less towards them. And we'd never expect that. If the new guy doesn't work or earns a low wage and Mom warns a high one, would you expect her to take the big kids on holiday and leave little one at home with Dad because he can't afford her?

What if they both have older kids? Is it OK that there's not enough money left for the baby but the older kids are having foreign holidays and wearing fancy new clothes because their quality of life must not be touched by a half sibling?

SleepingStandingUp · 21/02/2022 21:37

I mean fwiw no one should be having subsequent kids with anyone without thinking about the financial impact on them. I'm not suggesting that men should be able to go out and father 20 kids and there be no expectation on them to adequately provide.

Graphista · 21/02/2022 21:44

I'm not suggesting that men should be able to go out and father 20 kids and there be no expectation on them to adequately provide.

Yet in reality this IS the current system

Not only is cm not enforced expanding on the above example as follows :

They have 2 children each with 10 different women in different households each of those households is eligible for tax credits/benefits under the 2 child limit BUT if after he leaves each of those households the women have another child they aren't eligible to claim for their 3rd whereas he's claimed and benefited from claiming for his 3rd, 4th, 5th...20th child without consequence!

There are men I know in real life with 5+ kids by at least 3 different women who are claiming tax credits/benefits for 3rd+ dc

As I said I think the 2 child limit should be abolished anyway. But certainly the rules on that just now already unfairly punish Rps and reward nrps especially repeat nrps!

It encourages these feckless deadbeats!

Pinkyxx · 21/02/2022 21:44

@Graphista

YANBU it needs a major overhaul or rather rebuilding from foundations up

1 deduct at source - the majority of nrps are paye no reason it cannot be deducted this way. This would ensure payments are collected and reduce admin costs significantly

2 close the self employed loooholes - this would likely also lead to discovering tax cheats!

3 have the minimum be a set basic minimum - to cover 50% of essential basic costs (food, clothes, housing, energy usage, water), higher earning nrps can pay an additional amount based on a percentage similar to now.

4 the amounts need to at the very least inc 50% of childcare - while dc are under 12 or if disabled dc then while they still need personal care outside any school hours if nrp doesn’t provide half the childcare during working hours inc holiday cover

5 non payers MUST be dealt with swiftly and smartly. The current cms is pretty toothless a new agency needs to be created preferably with the same level of "bite" as hmrc and council tax currently has. Fines, impact on credit history, removal of passports, driving licence etc frankly I'd allow the money to be removed from their bank accounts!

6 I would not have deductions for having the dc overnight unless they are having them at least 3 nights a week - this is being abused by many nrps

7 Reducing CM if you live with another woman with children - or if you have another child should be stopped.
Men should pay for their children regardless of who they go on to be with.

Yes! Absolutely

8 Apply the 2 child tax credit limit to nrps as well as Rps! (Actually I'd abolish that altogether it's barbaric but if we must have it then it should apply to the deadbeat dads as well as the abandoned mums and dc! )

The biggest change required is a whole societal one.

Agreed

It needs to become socially unacceptable to not pay cm - a public broadcasting campaign with sm support would really work to start this

Is there someone I can write to in government to recommend you to head up a government taskforce with the sole purpose of bruning the current system to the ground and replacing it with your very sensible approach?

Completely overdue to replace the joke of a system we currently
suffer.

Graphista · 21/02/2022 21:49

@Pinkyxx awww bless you thank you

That's such a compliment

Unfortunately I think my wild younger days would be unearthed and used against me Wink

We do DESPERATELY need a govt of sensible, working class raised, feminist socialists though - just imo

And/or something like that Canadian cabinet where they had an ex teacher as education minister, an ex nurse as health minister etc

It's shockingly bad how unsuited the current cabinet are to their various roles. Many are the exact opposite of the kind of person you want in certain roles

For starters I think I'd have Martin Lewis as chancellor!

Yellowshirt · 21/02/2022 21:59

Child maintenance should be capped at a reasonable figure.

If both parents are working the none resident parent wouldn't need to pay more than £250 per child per month otherwise the resident parent is not contributing a reasonable amount to the childs upbringing and is being a greedy money grabber.

I'm paying over £300 per month for my daughter for example so what is my Ex contributing out of her 60k salary as an assistant head teacher. Virtually nothing.

Spooner56 · 21/02/2022 22:08

@ChiselandBits

If an NRP has serious and genuine doubts about how their money is being spent they would be very welcome to put measures in place to be the RP, or 50/50. That might include doing what most RPs do and tailoring employment, location, childcare and social life to allow for the child. Funny how many of them actually don't do that when it really comes to it. Much easier to bitch and snipe from the sidelines.
I don't disagree that many NRP (Dad's typically) wouldn't do this.

But let's not pretend most RP (mothers) would happily hand over 50:50 or more to their child's other parent if only they'd "tailor their life more".

Lalala1 · 21/02/2022 22:08

@Pinkyxx I second that @Graphista you’ve got it spot on!

OP posts:
Spooner56 · 21/02/2022 22:08

I certainly wouldn't. And I don't know any mother RP that would.

Lalala1 · 21/02/2022 22:16

@Yellowshirt

Child maintenance should be capped at a reasonable figure.

If both parents are working the none resident parent wouldn't need to pay more than £250 per child per month otherwise the resident parent is not contributing a reasonable amount to the childs upbringing and is being a greedy money grabber.

I'm paying over £300 per month for my daughter for example so what is my Ex contributing out of her 60k salary as an assistant head teacher. Virtually nothing.

What would be a reasonable amount though and what would it cover? @Yellowshirt?

What happens when a RP isn’t working or is working but isn’t able to work more due to childcare costs?

OP posts:
IstayedForTheFeminism · 21/02/2022 22:21

@Yellowshirt

Child maintenance should be capped at a reasonable figure.

If both parents are working the none resident parent wouldn't need to pay more than £250 per child per month otherwise the resident parent is not contributing a reasonable amount to the childs upbringing and is being a greedy money grabber.

I'm paying over £300 per month for my daughter for example so what is my Ex contributing out of her 60k salary as an assistant head teacher. Virtually nothing.

Surely this depends on outgoings?

If I were a single person I could rent a room in a shared house for £400 pcm including all my bills.

As it is I rent the cheapest 2 bed in my area for £800 (the next cheapest 2 bed is closer to £1k, and is actually smaller) . So my rent is double before we even factor in other bills.

I suppose I could move somewhere cheaper. But then ex would moan he can't see them, and I'd lose my very essential support network.

Graphista · 21/02/2022 22:21

@Yellowshirt - utter goady nonsense! How much are your household bills? How much do you THINK it costs to feed, clothe, bathe, and heat your child? To provide books, school equipment, toys? How old is the child are they still in childcare? Even "just" in the school holidays?

And WHY do you begrudge your CHILD from benefitting from BOTH her parents efforts?

Like hell is your ex contributing "virtually nothing" - at the very least she is contributing half PLUS her time and care - get a clue!

@Lalala1 awww thank you

Some Rps would be happy to do 50/50 IF ir was ACTUALLY 50/50

From what I've seen in reality it's only 50/50 in terms of where the child sleeps/has evening meal and possibly breakfast

It's not 50/50 in terms of clothes, school equipment & uniform, books, toys etc

It's not 50/50 in terms of school holiday and sick days daytime cover

It's not 50/50 in terms of paying for hobbies, clubs and extra curricular lessons

If it's truly 50/50 that's fine - it rarely is!

sofakingcool · 21/02/2022 22:25

@Yellowshirt

Child maintenance should be capped at a reasonable figure.

If both parents are working the none resident parent wouldn't need to pay more than £250 per child per month otherwise the resident parent is not contributing a reasonable amount to the childs upbringing and is being a greedy money grabber.

I'm paying over £300 per month for my daughter for example so what is my Ex contributing out of her 60k salary as an assistant head teacher. Virtually nothing.

Virtually nothing?

GrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrinGrin

It's a bloody good job you're there then, isn't it? Hmm