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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Am I worse off than someone on on UC??

166 replies

Underduvet33 · 18/02/2022 20:12

AIBU here to be annoyed? I recently heard someone say that they get £1300 in Universal credit per month and work 12hrs a week earning approx 300 pounds per month- plus they get all their childcare free as on UC plus require less childcare as only work 12 hours a week

That leaves them with 1600 to spend on rent etc (do they get help with this too??)

I don’t get any benefits I have 2 children in nursery full time- so I can work full time. Even with one of my children receiving 30 hours free - after childcare costs are deducted from my take home salary I’m left with 1100 a month to pay rent bills etc. i am in a good job with a good profession but it seems I’m worse off than someone on benefits?

Have I got this all wrong? If I quit my job worked and worked a small part time job claiming benefits of get more money per month in my pocket and spend more time with my kids?

I really think I must have misunderstood because I don’t get the impression that people on benefits are living the high life?

What have I misunderstood??? Were the numbers I told incorrect??

OP posts:
Graphista · 19/02/2022 18:50

Shortly after that I lost my job and ended up on jsa and tax credits. I wasn’t actually that much worse off financially because my outgoings decreased so much.

See - working also has costs shocker!

If we were to incentivize people to work more maybe more help with childcare or tax deductions for all childcare

The vast majority of people WANT to work!

Lack of childcare, unreasonable working conditions/hours, lack of jobs, lack of employers who are actually willing to make adjustments so that potential employees CAN work for them (flexible hours, wfh, adjustments for disability, adjustments for those with caring responsibilities...), employers who expect employees to do the work of 2/3 people rather than EMPLOYING more staff...

All these things (and I'm sure there's other things too) contribute to people who COULD be working not being able to.

I am mostly housebound and I had HOPED that with the pandemic revealing that many jobs CAN be done as wfh I'd be able to find at least something part time/flexible wfh...nope! Because the vast majority of employers STILL don't trust wfh as a viable option and expect employees to go into "hq" at least one full day a week.

The flexibility and understanding they were really forced to show during the pandemic has all but vanished.

Plus tbh a lot of businesses went under with the perfect storm of brexit + pandemic + lack of real support from the govt especially small businesses

A number of my friends and family who worked from the age of 16/18 full time until the pandemic - around my age so we're talking 30 odd years! Have suddenly and very unexpectedly found themselves out of work as even larger seemingly stable companies have gone under too and they are overwhelmed trying to navigate the benefits system (I've had umpteen conversations along the lines of

"they [govt] can't seriously expect us to live on £x"

"yes they can and have done for years, this is what those of us on benefits have had to manage on for a long time"

"Graph I'm so sorry [for previous negative comments/attitude towards benefit claimants] I had no idea!"

At which point I've had to bite my tongue SO hard not to say "well I and others DID tell you but you wouldn't believe us!")

It's been...interesting!

Graphista · 19/02/2022 18:51

@DogsAndGin - and did you ALSO calculate what their outgoings would be? I think not!

Eg what was the rent? Gotta be at least half of that and that's based on rent where I am which is one of the cheapest housing areas in the country!

£1600 for 4 people to live on is fuck all!

Plus you can't just choose to have 2 adults not working, at least one of them would be having to job search while claiming.

Yep - and job hunting costs too!

plus my job is really flexible.

Makes a huge difference

It's easily swallowed up by needing office clothes and to look more put together than when I had a rubbish kitchen job.

Things like this also make a difference

@Butterbegood ahh you started off so well! Not all children raised by parents on benefits are work shy and lacking in ambition. Many do all they can to "escape" but it's certainly not made easy for them!

although every time I did some overtime my housing benefit had to be reassessed and was usually messed up which made it a bit of an admin nightmare

For many it's not just an admin nightmare but leaves them in dire financial straits

I STILL hate having to make changes cos they never seem to get done as smoothly as they're supposed to be and UC was originally intended (not under the tories) to be a more flexible and responsive way of benefits working BECAUSE the legacy system was a nightmare that way but that's not what's happened is it?

And if you're on a very tight budget with vulnerable people to consider the security of knowing what you've got coming in really helps a lot.

TibetanTerrah · 19/02/2022 18:51

@Graphista you talk a lot of sense on threads, but I said four times bigger than I live now, not four times more expensive.

Considering I live in basically a shoebox of a studio flat, so no separate bedroom/living area, with not even room for a sofa, a television or a desk, I think I can safely say that a lot of one bedroom flats would be four times the size. As there is also a lower limit on rents, it still costs a fair chunk of money to live here, i.e. somehow going even smaller doesn't really mean cheaper iyswim.

Other than that, I agree with everything you said Smile

Graphista · 19/02/2022 18:54

What do people mean when they say this though? Many people working full time receive UC because they don't get paid enough. How many hours is acceptable to work for you to be "worthy" of getting UC?

Excellent point

Because frankly being poor or not isn't about morals or lack thereof but about the personal circumstances one finds themselves in, in the vast majority of cases through no fault of one's own. Also morality measurements/judgment seem to be applied FAR more to the poor - who are pretty powerless to change their circumstances - than to the rich - who often DO have the power to change not only their own circumstances but that of others

Would he not just be expected to pay CSM calculated maintenance?

Wow! Do you really thing that's ALL nrps should pay?

If his name is still on the mortgage it's still also an asset for him, childcare if he works too then why shouldn't he pay half/for when he's at work and therefore unable to have the dc? These are joint dc you don't leave/divorce your kids (although many nrps act like it!)

"Better off in work" means better off for your specific circumstances.

No in most cases it means more income WITHOUT accounting for increased outgoings

That's obviously not a like for like comparison!

Agree with that - a lot of that on this thread!

Don't forget to factor in the cost of getting to work.

Glad you mentioned this but it's just one potential cost of working

Sometimes you can be technically better off working more, but the difference is swallowed up by work related expenses.

That's a relief to see

Not to make it so that every single person in work has a better living standard than every single person on benefits.

But here I have to reluctantly agree with the "bashers"

It SHOULD be the case that working offers a better lifestyle than not working. Not because it's morally better but because that simply seems fair and right.

Where the "bashers" and I disagree is that the way to achieve this is NOT to penalise benefits claimants (who are often barely managing, didn't choose to be claimants, have zero power to change things for either themselves or the "bashers")

The correct and best way to achieve this is better wages, better working conditions, more flexible employment options, better childcare provision and better social care provision so that people with additional challenges to working but who could work can do so.

Two things I think would actually solve a LOT of problems (unemployment, economy issues, work/life balance for population, health of population) are -

1 To have the maximum working week be something like 30 hours. That way employees aren't getting frazzled and their health and relationships being affected, there'd be more jobs available as the work still needs to be done and so there'd be more people in work and earning, most working class and lower middle class people spend rather than hoard their money so there's the economy boost.

2 have an actual living wage, I reckon around £12 an hour. Again those on lower level wages tend to spend rather than save, economy would be stimulated, people would be less stressed which is healthier.

As they said we wernt entitled to anything which is fair enough.

Is it though?

Not everyone is in healthy and fair relationships financially. The one claim per couple nonsense really screws those in abusive relationships, in relationships with addicts or even "just" in relationships with someone who isn't good managing money. Also it's funny how the state treat you "as if you are married" only when it BENEFITS

them to do so!

although still my older children don’t get full entitlement to uni loans because of my partners income

See I think that is wrong. You and their father's income should be included and you both should be helping out your dc as much as you can, your partner shouldn't be held liable for the costs of the dc, same applies when they're younger too imo. BUT this would only work IF nrps were paying reasonable amounts of cm and this was enforced (and yes I see your partner also pays cm - even more reason why he shouldn't ALSO be held liable for your dc, their father should be covering half their costs)

Those that moan about how much you get on UC have never actually experienced it.

Very much my experience too, see my comments on those who due to the pandemic ARE now claimants

You are assumed to be fraudulent from the outset

Yes this really pisses me off! The vast majority of claimants are ordinary honest people just trying to get by

But I have looked at it, and if I had a child I could work a lot less with basically the same amount of disposable income.

But you likely haven't accounted for the costs of said child. If you don't have dc chances are you have no idea of all the costs and practicalities involved!

Graphista · 19/02/2022 18:55

@TibetanTerrah thanks for the compliment but I find it hard to believe even 4 times bigger roughly where do you live?

Graphista · 19/02/2022 19:00

@LightfoldEngines did you see those threads too? They were really quite astonishing!

"But dds horse riding lessons aren't a luxury it's exercise"

"But the £000's of savings I have are earmarked for a house deposit/holiday/new car next year"

"But surely they can't really expect us to stop having hobbies"

Are all comments (I may be paraphrasing slightly but the gist is very accurate) I remember reading on those threads!

Totally not living in the real world

Feelingnotatallok · 19/02/2022 19:00

BigPurpleEgg
You say that you wouldnt be any better off if you worked ..so you 'dont and wont..' go back to.work until you return to your teaching job which could be done p/t....
but work is contributing to system.. so you are happy for others to support you to stay.at home... genuinley??
Since when was this ok to.choose this as a lifestyle...
.

TibetanTerrah · 19/02/2022 19:10

@Graphista Kent. The size of my entire flat inc bathroom and kitchen is roughly the size of my DM's bedroom in her modest three bed. It really is small. It's hard for people to get their heads around unless they see it! There was a thread running a while ago talking about London 'crash pad' type micro-flats. Posters saying it's impossible to live like that but here we are, I do. My rent is £600 a month, with bills to go on top of course, but with covid making the market competitive and pushing rents up anyway, even if I moved to the cheaper seaside towns 15-20 miles away I wouldn't get anything for less than that and would make getting to my two jobs next to impossible. As I say, it is what it is.

Graphista · 19/02/2022 19:15

@LightfoldEngines it was even harder in real life to not exclaim/laugh/even rage when dealing with people - who in several cases had spent YEARS openly looking down their noses at me! Coming to me to ask for advice and help because they had NO idea how it all worked.

I think the most shocked person was the one who said to me they weren't going to claim yet even though they could because they had enough to last them a month of outgoings and were confident they would find another job in that time having worked for the same employer for 25 years in a low paid entry level role.

Their response when I pointed out to them that for starters there was at least the 5 ww to consider, but that there was also huge backlogs because there were so many new claimants so the reality was more like 2-3 months, was quite something - they genuinely thought I was having them on! Then I pointed out that this also meant there were a lot of other people ALSO desperately job hunting at this time. Again they were sceptical.

The phone call ended

They then spent that evening looking up the 5ww and backlog info and learning that yes it was real, and also on job sites seeing that there were few jobs available, none in their industry (hospitality) and coming to the realisation they were up against applicants who were younger but also had more experience and qualifications in other industries that were still hiring.

They called me the next day and basically ranted at me about it all - even though I of course didn't make the rules or create the circumstances!

It took them almost 11 months to find a new job and even then it was part time and lower paid. They're still looking for something full time and better pay and conditions now around a year later.

To say they've had a rude awakening is a HUGE understatement

What's very amusing is they've gone from "tories have their faults but they are good for the economy and working people" on sm to

"Fuck the tories and UC and fat cat ceos who don't pay decent wages" Grin

As I said...interesting

And don't even get them started on energy price rises and how the govt handled that!

MaryAndHerNet · 19/02/2022 19:38

Graphista

I've nothing to say really, but I want to say yay for your posts. Very good very good.

It's so easy for people who've never lived in under £1000 a month to loan that £1000 a month is loads.

MaryAndHerNet · 19/02/2022 19:39

Typos here: It's so easy for people who've never lived in under £1000 a month to loan that £1000 a month is loads.

My fingers are cold, I'm at home, under a duvet and sleeping bag, can't afford heating. I'll retype it:

It's so easy for people who've never lived on under £1000 a month to moan that £1000 a month is loads.

Smallkeys · 19/02/2022 19:42

If you are a single household even a good salary doesn’t go far . Everyone know that single living costs so much more than living with a partner .

Schlerp · 19/02/2022 19:47

What’s with all the benefits bashing/OMG someone is getting something I don’t from the government posts?

Are we due a government statement on UC credit cuts ? Are government interns trying to set the tone with middle income mums to lambast those less fortunate?

XenoBitch · 19/02/2022 20:05

@Schlerp

What’s with all the benefits bashing/OMG someone is getting something I don’t from the government posts?

Are we due a government statement on UC credit cuts ? Are government interns trying to set the tone with middle income mums to lambast those less fortunate?

This.

Seen a lot lately. I must be doing UC wrong. Some "glamorous" lifestyle I lead on the £640 a month I claim.

Graphista · 19/02/2022 20:16

@MaryAndHerNet oh thank you

It's so easy for people who've never lived on under £1000 a month to moan that £1000 a month is loads.

So true

I've not had ch on all winter too expensive. I use a wee space heater and I'm mostly in bed with hot water bottle too

If you are a single household even a good salary doesn’t go far . Everyone know that single living costs so much more than living with a partner .

True Mse/Martin Lewis recently posted about this on sm

Are we due a government statement on UC credit cuts ? Are government interns trying to set the tone with middle income mums to lambast those less fortunate?

I wouldn't be surprised

babycornfortea · 19/02/2022 20:47

I met up with an old uni friend this week. She has two kids, single parent but gets fairly good maintenance from the dad and has wealthy parents. She says she gets around £3000 in UC a month, including rent and childcare costs... she also said she might consider going back to work in about six months or so, her second child has just turned 3, but that she only wanted part time work that fitted in with school hours, as she's loved being with her kids and doesn't want to miss them growing up, and why should she when she's far better off on UC.

As a contrast, I too am a single parent, I work full time as a teacher and earn nowhere near that amount, less than £2k after tax etc, despite nearly killing myself in the process with stress, and barely seeing my child who has been full time childcare from 9 months, that I have paid for by myself. I get £6.27 a week from the father in CMS, and because I was stupid enough to save up money since I started working after uni, I am entitled to child benefit and child benefit only.

How is that fair?

babycornfortea · 19/02/2022 20:50

Oh, and because despite my best efforts to cut corners and expenses etc, I have been in the negative every month for about four years, those savings are now pretty much gone. So I am fucked now for the future. Guess I could just wait for them to totally run out and then claim, but my child is over three now so the rules about UC and claiming whilst children are under three don't apply Hmm

MaryAndHerNet · 19/02/2022 21:04

She says she gets around £3000 in UC a month, including rent and childcare costs... she also said she might consider going back to work in about six months or so

UC only pay 85% child care and only if someone is working.
There's also a benefit cap in place.
There's also LHA caps in place.

If she's told you all this, she lying....

babycornfortea · 19/02/2022 21:06

Ah sorry, no you are right about the childcare, she gets the 15 hours free for the just turned three year old.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 19/02/2022 21:14

@babycornfortea

I met up with an old uni friend this week. She has two kids, single parent but gets fairly good maintenance from the dad and has wealthy parents. She says she gets around £3000 in UC a month, including rent and childcare costs... she also said she might consider going back to work in about six months or so, her second child has just turned 3, but that she only wanted part time work that fitted in with school hours, as she's loved being with her kids and doesn't want to miss them growing up, and why should she when she's far better off on UC.

As a contrast, I too am a single parent, I work full time as a teacher and earn nowhere near that amount, less than £2k after tax etc, despite nearly killing myself in the process with stress, and barely seeing my child who has been full time childcare from 9 months, that I have paid for by myself. I get £6.27 a week from the father in CMS, and because I was stupid enough to save up money since I started working after uni, I am entitled to child benefit and child benefit only.

How is that fair?

No one gets that much in UC. If she's not working she will be getting the free 15 hours, you don't get given UC to pay for childcare if you aren't working.
TheHateIsNotGood · 19/02/2022 21:27

I'm one of the UC Losers (as identified by Martin Lewis) - a single adult Carer of a disabled young adult ds. Self-employed with a Mortgage.

I've been self-employed for years as it's been the only way I could work and meet DS's needs - whilst he was classified as my dependent with Working and Child Tax Credits, my self-employed Income, Child Benefit, Carers Allowance and some Council Tax support I could pay all the bills without chewing my nails every day.

Including my mortgage - after DM died about 7 years ago I put down nearly all my inheritance on a house/home. Tempting though it was to go spendy and enjoy it, I was sensible.

Under UC, my meagre earnings often wipes out my [petty] UC entitlement to nearly £0 each month and Carers Allowance is deducted £ for £. The Council Tax Support people assume every month is as good as the last best earnings month I had. I am not entitled to any Work Allowance/Income Disregard under UC. The only thing that is the same is that my Mortgage Payments aren't included in any calculations.

Yet all my Caring responsibilities are still the same. They haven't changed just because ds is now 20. He too is now on UC, there are no additional payments for Limited Capability under UC - all it means is that he isn't unreasonably hassled to find work that he can't do.

And, as his Carer (in receipt of Carers Allowance @ £67.50pw which is called Unearned Income under UC) I get to manage ds's claim too. And continue looking for another job for myself and work out how I'm going to continue to support ds until I'm not alive to do it anymore.

Happy Days

Nomoresmoresthensnores · 19/02/2022 21:44

Mid 40s getting divorced. Work 27 hrs and care for 2 kids one of whom is disabled. Job doesn't pay well at all... guess what I work FOR government. I'm entitled to and claim UC with housing. In 2001 I earned 50k a year. Then I married a total arse and had a disabled child who I wouldn't change for the world... but yeah.. who knows when they'll need benefits. Or who gets them. I work on projects that help people really struggling and they'd never guess I was also on UC.
And yes I think I'd be slightly better off on carers allowance or perhaps even. But once I get my house money off ahole ex I will need a mortgage so working is better for me...and also hopefully one day I will get a better job etc
My ex is incandescent with rage that I qualify for benefits and I'm a scrounger. But is arguing over minimum CMS despite earning just below 6 figures!

Graphista · 19/02/2022 22:10

@babycornfortea again your ire is aimed in the wrong direction. Your "friend" who you don't seem to even like, is not to blame for your circumstances! The govt is.

gets fairly good maintenance from the dad and has wealthy parents.

And?

Her ex SHOULD Pay a fair amount of cm and her having wealthy parents is irrelevant

If she's told you all this, she lying....

I'm sceptical the poster was actually told this!

Most of us and especially those of us on benefits are INCREDIBLY wary of sharing our detailed PERSONAL finances with others

@TheHateIsNotGood the way carers are treated in this country is unconscionable!

But is arguing over minimum CMS despite earning just below 6 figures!

Ugh! The astounding hypocrisy!

TheHateIsNotGood · 19/02/2022 22:10

No more seems you're edging your way into the 'chasm' of being an LP Carer of a disabled ds - it ain't pretty as I'm sure you already realize.

Just to keep you up to date - Carers Allowance is only payable if you don't earn more than £140pw so you definitely wouldn't be better off receiving Carers Allowance which is £67.50pw.

As long as you can hold onto your Gov job I'd stick with it, not many employers offer the flexibility that caring for a disabled requires.

Maybe you would be better off if you claimed UC - it really depends - but I can assure you, that you wouldn't be if you relied on Carers Allowance to add to your earnings.

Musereader · 19/02/2022 22:26

@babycornfortea, £3k on UC while not working is just flat out impossible without multiple disabled people in the household.

I have 1300 claimants and only one gets upto 2,500 a month and they have 4 disabled people.

Maybe it could get that high in London where you can get over 1k in rent, but that is because they will be paying that much in rent, after 9 months out of work they will be benefit capped which is 1,916 in London and 1,666 elsewhere.