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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do ambulance crew really believe someone with serious mental health issues will be helped at A&E?

310 replies

SpringTime2020 · 18/02/2022 13:58

The other thread about ambulances made me think about this.

I was taken to A&E by ambulance a couple of times some time ago due to my mental health. Both times the ambulance crew reassured me I'd get the help I needed but both times I got no help for my mental health at all.

Honestly, no wonder these people are making repeat calls - they are probably desperate!

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Mickarooni · 21/02/2022 17:33

The pressure for beds is high but the threshold for admitting someone under a section of the MHA has not changed. It is a very serious action to detain someone, it has to be lawful.

SpringTime2020 · 21/02/2022 17:37

@Ogel

It stems back to a lack of beds as well, the threshold for being sectioned (which isn't the best route anyway for everyone) is ludicrously high at the moment sadly.
Oh, yes definitely. The pressure mental health teams are under are crazy. Not just to avoid admission but to discharge quickly from acute wards. I wouldn't want to be a psych on an acute for anything!

There does seem to be a particular problem with A&E to discharge so quickly a proper assessment is not undertaken. I know there is a lot of pressure to rapidly discharge but it seems to lead to people being let down. I think that the A&E team is mainly (or all?) made up of bank staff contributes.

In my case I was sectioned a few days later when my condition hadn't worsened, so I clearly met threshold.

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SpringTime2020 · 21/02/2022 17:38

@Mickarooni

The pressure for beds is high but the threshold for admitting someone under a section of the MHA has not changed. It is a very serious action to detain someone, it has to be lawful.
Completely agree.
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SpringTime2020 · 21/02/2022 17:41

I think that although the threshold hasn't increased as of course the MHA hasn't change due to the increase in pressure not to admit this causes some hcp to not admit where it is appropriate. It is like with SW - the threshold for CP has not changed but after a high profile case more children go onto CP or are removed.

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FateHasRedesignedMost · 21/02/2022 17:49

Anyway, just a few things on your comments about EUPD. It is true EUPD is very misunderstood among many staff who have not had much training in that area. Admission can indeed 'cure' EUPD (in terms of not meeting criteria) when the gold standard of DBT is undertaken or sometimes schema/trauma therapy. As I already said it isn't so much that admission in and of itself makes it worse but the situation and environment

Yes DBT is the gold standard treatment for EUPD, along with schema and trauma therapy, but it’s rarely undertaken as an inpatient treatment.
The cost of keeping someone in an inpatient bed for a DBT course would be astronomical. DBT, trauma therapy, schema therapy etc can be delivered as part of group therapy in the community, by outpatient psychologists on a 1:1 basis etc.

Occasionally if someone with EUPD is considered very risky, staff will try to secure a Tier 4 placement where trauma therapy and DBT is carried out as an inpatient on a locked unit. But even these placements are not failsafe; if someone is determined to take their own life they will. They cannot be watched 1:1 24/7 and often show signs of false improvement. One of the things with EUPD is how unpredictable emotions can be. Someone might be happy and laughing one minute, suicidal the next.

Admission over 3 days for people with EUPD has been found to be detrimental for a variety of reasons (hence the 3 day pathway).

I agree an acute psychiatric ward is not an ideal therapeutic environment! There’s often lots of noise, shouting, screaming, restraints happening, patients head-banging or self harming or fighting. Staff are doing their best to keep everyone safe but these wards are notoriously understaffed and hard to recruit to and retain staff. Often there will be one qualified nurse on duty and the rest are agency or HCPs. You have people suffering with paranoid delusions, people hallucinating, people detoxing from drugs and alcohol, people having functional seizures and people who are manic and disinhibited to the point they don’t know where they are or why. Running a DBT group on this type of ward is very difficult to do effectively! Believe me I’ve tried!

EUPD is a personality disorder, so although it can be serious and even fatal, a long term admission is rarely the answer. People with EUPD need to learn life skills and techniques to cope with past trauma. Of course not everyone had the same symptoms but even in training, the EUPD traits are made clear and the diagnosis isn’t given lightly.

I’ve cared for groups of young women with EUPD, and while not everyone is the same, it’s worrying how on an acute ward some link up and share tips to SH, ligature, plan escapes, take against certain staff members etc; this type of networking goes beyond the ward and they often contact friends outside so their friends try to get admitted to the same unit. I’ve had women say they feel safe on the ward and they keep trying to come back, openly admitting this; one of the key symptoms of EUPD is seeking care and becoming reliant on a certain place/team to provide that. It’s very sad that people sometimes seek admission to a psychiatric unit as I wonder how awful or empty their lives outside of that unit are. Once admitted they are often model patients, attending all therapy groups and accepting medication, yet I’ve never known anyone to be ‘cured’ by admission. Long term community therapy and age can sometimes cure EUPD.

More complex medication/mix of medication is often needed for EUPD as with many SMIs. But yes anti-depressants and anti-psychotics are often used with good effect

Medics often regard antidepressants as useless for EUPD unless the patient is depressed as well as having a PD. Mood stabilisers are often used to good effect as EUPD is characterised by extreme mood swings. Anti psychotics have little effect on EUPD unless the patient has genuine psychosis as well. In which case EUPD wouldn’t be given as the primary diagnosis. I’ve seen entries in notes like ‘Psychotic episode with EUPD traits’ but the psychosis is the main concern in these cases.

SpringTime2020 · 21/02/2022 18:45

@FateHasRedesignedMost - I agree it is difficult to get a bed for inpatient DBT but my point was when it does happen it can 'cure' a patient. It can be done in the community but is very poor in my opinion compared to inpatient but of course is much cheaper. Having said that I'm just comparing it to full on DBT as first conceived but I'm sure even just a skills group could be useful.

I completely agree as you say that attempts can still happen at Tier 4. Yes, sometimes a patient is 1:1 24/7 but again of course this is expensive, so rare. And yes, as you say it can.be difficult to judge improvement. And again most staff have no training in EUPD even in tier 4 which makes it pretty impossible!

Oh my goodness, I can imagine if you were trying to do DBT on the ward it would be impossible! It really needs to be quiet for concentration! I think it could only work off ward. I did actually do a 4 week mindfulness course off ward. But that's great that you tried and it may have helped people even so.

I absolutely agree that long term admission is not often helpful. I just meant for the right person a long term DBT placement can be life-changing. It was for me, although I don't have EUPD. I'm actually working in a women's hospital now with Tier 4 PD ward. There are lots of some women there that in hindsight it wasn't the right placement for them but many thrive.

Yes, that was what I meant about environment/situation. A group of women with EUPD does need to be managed. It isn't really possible to do so on an acute. These women tend to be very empathetic and caring (actually too much so) and form strong bonds. Unfortunately, it can lead to what you describe. And absolutely, until a woman with EUPD has learned skills to cope with their life (which of course doesn't often happen due to funding) then yes, they are often going to feel so much better when 'held,' on a ward. And again, those strong bonds develop. It is very sad. The day to day pain these women go through. I hope one day more women can be helped with DBT. As for 'cure' as I said only long term wards but like you said if the woman has their meds sorted on an acute this can then mean they can cope with community therapy, although this is unlikely to happen with a 3 day admission.

It is a bit of a myth that anti-depressants and anti-psychotics don't help. On a tier 4 PD ward many are on these meds. Obviously they tend to be complex cases but the long nature of admission means the psych can really get on top of meds. I don't think an acute ward psych really has the experience nor of course the time to do this. Yes, mood stabalisers can help too including for hallucinations etc. It wasn't so long ago that people believed that no medication could help with EUPD atall!

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inheritancetrack · 21/02/2022 18:53

MH patients were always seen when I worked in A&E even though it often took a few hours to get the on call team there

SpringTime2020 · 21/02/2022 18:53

@FateHasRedesignedMost - sorry, I just wanted to make one more point re:a tier 4 PD wards. This may have been what you meant, anyway! When looking at admitting women to these wards staff wouldn't just look at someone being risky but that they are risky if they carry out therapy in the community. The patient also has to be ready to engage in therapy and commit for the long term.

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SpringTime2020 · 21/02/2022 19:48

@inheritancetrack

MH patients were always seen when I worked in A&E even though it often took a few hours to get the on call team there
I don't doubt it but seen is different to properly assessed as well aswell as
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SpringTime2020 · 21/02/2022 19:49

Sorry as well as different to being given some help, unfortunately.

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