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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Do ambulance crew really believe someone with serious mental health issues will be helped at A&E?

310 replies

SpringTime2020 · 18/02/2022 13:58

The other thread about ambulances made me think about this.

I was taken to A&E by ambulance a couple of times some time ago due to my mental health. Both times the ambulance crew reassured me I'd get the help I needed but both times I got no help for my mental health at all.

Honestly, no wonder these people are making repeat calls - they are probably desperate!

OP posts:
SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 00:37

@Mickarooni - oh, I know. It was only a few of course but I guess it hits a nerve when you have a mental illness and you are confronted by that kind of nastiness aimed at those with SMI. I don't surround myself with people like that IRL so it can be a bit shocking!

OP posts:
SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 00:40

@Mickarooni

Interesting point about specialised paramedics. Some areas have paramedics and MH practitioners working together in one vehicle. As you can imagine, demand for this service is high, so it can’t help everyone but it’s had positive outcomes for some people that gives me hope for the future.
I think this is great. I mean you have to hand it to paramedics they get called out to all sorts and as mental health services decline of course the amount of MH calls to them increases. They deal with this with pretty much no training. I actually didn't realise it was so bad. One paramedic on this thread said they don't even do a mental health placement! Crazy!
OP posts:
CSIblonde · 20/02/2022 00:49

As far as I know, from a coworker a few years back who had a history of MH issues, if you present at A&E with a MH crisis such as being off meds & v unwell as a result , suicidal, not lucid/psychotic break, hallucinating , hearing voices, self harming, danger to yourself or others etc, you are given a psych assessment & they go from there. My coworker had tried suicide numerous times had other MH issues too & ended up sectioned every time: then was sent home with meds & instructions to see her GP & request psychotherapy (Letter to GP conforming their instructions also sent ) , which she refused to do.

SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 00:55

@CSIblonde

As far as I know, from a coworker a few years back who had a history of MH issues, if you present at A&E with a MH crisis such as being off meds & v unwell as a result , suicidal, not lucid/psychotic break, hallucinating , hearing voices, self harming, danger to yourself or others etc, you are given a psych assessment & they go from there. My coworker had tried suicide numerous times had other MH issues too & ended up sectioned every time: then was sent home with meds & instructions to see her GP & request psychotherapy (Letter to GP conforming their instructions also sent ) , which she refused to do.
Well, you will get to talk to someone. Whether you get a proper assessment is debatable.

This is the madness that goes on in the NHS. Expecting someone who is really quite unwell to see their GP and request psychotherapy. There is so much data about how difficult many with SMI find accessing their GP. And of course then it will take ages for psychotherapy to come through and by that time they will be too unwell to take advantage of it. And then the cycle continues!

OP posts:
FateHasRedesignedMost · 20/02/2022 05:31

People in mental health crisis are experiencing slightly more than a mere thought about suicide. They are psychotic, disorientated, actively trying to end their lives, not sleeping, not eating

Not necessarily. People in mental health crisis present in many different ways, they don’t all have the same symptoms. They’re not all suicidal. They don’t all stop eating and sleeping. Not all are psychotic.

Someone admitted for EUPD Crisis (on a 3-day pathway normally as time in hospital is proven to worsen EUPD past a 3 day admission in most cases) is likely to present with low mood, self harm, risky behaviour, possibly suicide attempts, they often report feeling disconnected from reality and sometimes report panic attacks, hallucinations and hearing voices. The difference between someone in EUPD crisis and say someone in bipolar crisis or suffering from a severe psychotic or depressive episode is very obvious to staff. The patient with EUPD usually has a long history of suicide attempts, chronic self harm and admissions and may have ‘psychosis with behavioural elements’ on their notes.

Psychosis is often not taken seriously when mixed with EUPD (a very risky move by staff, as you do have the occasional patient who is psychotic too and gets missed. I don’t agree with dismissing psychosis until you’ve observed someone for at least 24 hours). However I’ve also observed patients trying to present as psychotic to get admitted, eg only showing psychotic symptoms when they think staff are watching.

But the differences between PD psychosis (which is often transient, trauma-related and more dissociation) and true psychosis is often clear to staff.

Most non PD psychotic patients IME try to hide or mask their symptoms and might display disinhibition, try to leave (needing sectioning) and their psychosis normally responds to medication. It doesn’t wax and wane; a psychotic episode is hard to miss as symptoms can’t be easily hidden. Staff will take into account their history too; a diagnosis of bipolar, schizophrenia, drug induced psychosis, a serious suicide attempt (particularly the first) tends to get people admitted. If they have a PD diagnosis and multiple past admissions have failed to help, or they have a history of OD, DSH or ligatures on the ward they’re less likely to be treated as an inpatient.

I’m sorry the paramedics gave you false hope. But they don’t have access to your full history which is taken very seriously when deciding whether or not to admit.

Toanewstart23 · 20/02/2022 06:23

I’ve never come across an OP so doggedly determined to post dozens and dozens of lengthy posts waxing lyrical about why she’s 100% right and anyone offering a different option is 100% wrong

Mucky1 · 20/02/2022 08:08

My brother has fairly significant auditory and visual hallucinations and all of his care is conducted in the community now thankfully. He was sectioned once about 20 yrs ago for a short while but since then he's been on a pretty even keel. If he was to have some down time he couldn't get out of he's been given the tools to help himself he knows who to ring if he's in a spiral .
AnE wouldn't have been an appropriate place to take him if he became ill they aren't equipped to handle these kinds of complex cases it would be a waste of time.
Can I ask those waiting years for help have you thought of accessing some help from local mental health charity's or self funding? Not ideal and I know you shouldn't have to but desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures. I can only imagine how hard it must be trying to live your life and keep yourself alive when you're literally in the pits of despair 😞 I really do hope things are sorted soon.

HoppingPavlova · 20/02/2022 08:40

If A&E is not the place, why are there mental health teams working in A&E? How do these teams manage to treat their patients if it is not possible? Why are hcps like therapists told to ring 999 in an emergency? Why do paramedics attend these calls?

It’s been explained several times on this thread, in several different ways. It’s meant to be a standard pathway - hence the instruction to use 999, hence paramedics attending. BUT that pathway is now subject to breakdown more often than not. Not every A&E will have a mental health team. Even if there is meant to be a mental health team in A&E doesn’t mean you get that service due to resourcing - it may be 3 days until operational in a bau sense due to resourcing etc. You can’t have a bed blocked for that amount of time and nowadays using a bed in another ward meanwhile doesn’t really occur so it’s a very hit and miss community referral pathway. Bed shortages in acute units should someone even be assessed as such and so on.

So, it’s a system that’s meant to work but just doesn’t more often than not. The A&E, ambulance etc is set up for a ‘working system’ and while sometimes the planets and stars align and it does work often it doesn’t. No one is happy about this, including HCPs.

We have all explained this many times. It’s pointless posting but, but, but as that’s the way it is unfortunately.

linerforlife · 20/02/2022 08:52

You realise that the paramedics don't get to choose where they take people right? They have a set of protocols to follow according to how the patient is presenting. That's their job.

AlizeeEasy · 20/02/2022 09:29

@linerforlife

You realise that the paramedics don't get to choose where they take people right? They have a set of protocols to follow according to how the patient is presenting. That's their job.
That’s not what the OP is saying. It’s the false hope, no one should tell someone in a Mh crisis that something will happen only for it not to happen.

My friend is hanging on by a thread and every time she is promised she will get the help she needs and then doesn’t get it, she is pushed closer and closer to that edge, I’m scared everyday that she will hurt herself, in her case she has found the paramedics to be fantastic, but the mh team are the ones giving her promises they don’t keep.

FateHasRedesignedMost · 20/02/2022 10:04

you do realise that being actively suicidal is an emergency? If A&E is not the place, why are there mental health teams working in A&E? How do these teams manage to treat their patients if it is not possible? Why are hcps like therapists told to ring 999 in an emergency? Why do paramedics attend these calls?

Yes being actively suicidal is an emergency, and most patients who have made a serious attempt (especially a one off attempt or co-morbid with a serious MH condition like schizophrenia or psychotic depression) are admitted and treated on an acute ward or in a 136 suite, or sent via secure ambulance to PICU.

If you call 999 and say you plan to end your life, they have to take you at your word and attend, and transport you to hospital. The paramedics don’t have access to your MH history, they go by what the dispatcher passes on and how you present.

If you get to A&E and the MH team realise you’ve had multiple similar admissions, or have chronic EUPD that hasn’t responded to acute inpatient help in the past, or that you’ve made several ‘cry for help’ attempts on your life they are less likely to admit you to an acute ward. If you ask for admission they may document that as ‘seeking admission’. They cannot legally section you unless you refuse to be admitted and they think you’re unsafe to go home!

Sadly a lot of patients with EUPD follow a pattern of behaviours, which make staff wary and less understanding when someone is keen for admission. Admission can’t cure EUPD and sometimes makes it much worse. Typically it doesn’t respond well to antidepressants, antipsychotic medications or standard therapy. That’s why many patients get referred to community services, group therapy, DBT, outpatient psychology etc.

It doesn’t mean they don’t care, but they can’t admit everyone who presents to A&E, if you can be treated in the community it keeps a bed free for someone who desperately needs it (eg they’ve just come out of ICU after an OD or are experiencing a full blown psychotic episode with no capacity to make decisions, weigh up information or safety plan.)

ScrumpyBetty · 20/02/2022 21:01

Thanks @FateHasRedesignedMost great post, you explained this really well.

SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 21:36

@FateHasRedesignedMost

People in mental health crisis are experiencing slightly more than a mere thought about suicide. They are psychotic, disorientated, actively trying to end their lives, not sleeping, not eating

Not necessarily. People in mental health crisis present in many different ways, they don’t all have the same symptoms. They’re not all suicidal. They don’t all stop eating and sleeping. Not all are psychotic.

Someone admitted for EUPD Crisis (on a 3-day pathway normally as time in hospital is proven to worsen EUPD past a 3 day admission in most cases) is likely to present with low mood, self harm, risky behaviour, possibly suicide attempts, they often report feeling disconnected from reality and sometimes report panic attacks, hallucinations and hearing voices. The difference between someone in EUPD crisis and say someone in bipolar crisis or suffering from a severe psychotic or depressive episode is very obvious to staff. The patient with EUPD usually has a long history of suicide attempts, chronic self harm and admissions and may have ‘psychosis with behavioural elements’ on their notes.

Psychosis is often not taken seriously when mixed with EUPD (a very risky move by staff, as you do have the occasional patient who is psychotic too and gets missed. I don’t agree with dismissing psychosis until you’ve observed someone for at least 24 hours). However I’ve also observed patients trying to present as psychotic to get admitted, eg only showing psychotic symptoms when they think staff are watching.

But the differences between PD psychosis (which is often transient, trauma-related and more dissociation) and true psychosis is often clear to staff.

Most non PD psychotic patients IME try to hide or mask their symptoms and might display disinhibition, try to leave (needing sectioning) and their psychosis normally responds to medication. It doesn’t wax and wane; a psychotic episode is hard to miss as symptoms can’t be easily hidden. Staff will take into account their history too; a diagnosis of bipolar, schizophrenia, drug induced psychosis, a serious suicide attempt (particularly the first) tends to get people admitted. If they have a PD diagnosis and multiple past admissions have failed to help, or they have a history of OD, DSH or ligatures on the ward they’re less likely to be treated as an inpatient.

I’m sorry the paramedics gave you false hope. But they don’t have access to your full history which is taken very seriously when deciding whether or not to admit.

Well, exactly as I said there are many different symptoms. I didn't say everyone experiences the same, of course not!

EUPD can also present very differently. Not everyone self harms or presents with risky behaviour. They do not necessarily have suicide attempts or a lot of admissions. Psychosis can occur but is transient so completely different from for example a psychotic episode someone with schizophrenia, just as real. Of course behavioural issues occur but are something different. One of the most important parts of someone with EUPD's history is the trauma they have experienced. Medication often helps those with EUPD with psychosis. There are also many with schizophrenia that present well and can hide their delusions or psychosis from many staff. They often initially get diagnosed incorrectly.

In terms of admission, it isn't so much the length of time but the nature of the admission. Things such as engagement, the diagnosis of others on the ward etc. The gold standard treatment for EUPD is DBT. This isn't really available in its true form except as an inpatient. In this situation patients with EUPD are hospitalised for at least 18 months. Many improve a lot even to the point of no longer meeting the criteria.

All of this is by the by of course but shows SMI is very complex and we have to treat people as individuals.

It goes without saying that a paramedic doesn't have this information which is why they must be very careful what they say.

In my situation I think they thought I would be admitted due to the information given by my therapist that I was experiencing psychosis and was actively suicidal. As it turned out she was quite right that I needed admitting as I was a few days later.

OP posts:
SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 21:43

@Toanewstart23

I’ve never come across an OP so doggedly determined to post dozens and dozens of lengthy posts waxing lyrical about why she’s 100% right and anyone offering a different option is 100% wrong
If you've not got anything nice to say perhaps say nothing atall.

You're starting to come across a bit creepy. You're not interested in the topic but are reading all of my posts. Weird.

You must be missing the post from others where we are discussing the issue and I've responded with how much I agree with their posts. Yes, I right in depth because this is a topic I'm passionate about. It is my career after all!

Unfortunately, there are a fair few posters like yourself that really don't have a clue. You don't work in health or have ever experienced SMI yourself or a relative. However you believe yourself to be an expert above all the paramedics and hcps that have posted and above those with SMI and their families. I don't think I've come across such arrogance before.

OP posts:
SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 21:52

@HoppingPavlova

If A&E is not the place, why are there mental health teams working in A&E? How do these teams manage to treat their patients if it is not possible? Why are hcps like therapists told to ring 999 in an emergency? Why do paramedics attend these calls?

It’s been explained several times on this thread, in several different ways. It’s meant to be a standard pathway - hence the instruction to use 999, hence paramedics attending. BUT that pathway is now subject to breakdown more often than not. Not every A&E will have a mental health team. Even if there is meant to be a mental health team in A&E doesn’t mean you get that service due to resourcing - it may be 3 days until operational in a bau sense due to resourcing etc. You can’t have a bed blocked for that amount of time and nowadays using a bed in another ward meanwhile doesn’t really occur so it’s a very hit and miss community referral pathway. Bed shortages in acute units should someone even be assessed as such and so on.

So, it’s a system that’s meant to work but just doesn’t more often than not. The A&E, ambulance etc is set up for a ‘working system’ and while sometimes the planets and stars align and it does work often it doesn’t. No one is happy about this, including HCPs.

We have all explained this many times. It’s pointless posting but, but, but as that’s the way it is unfortunately.

I think we are posting at cross purposes.

I am a hcp and I completely understand that it often doesn't work. In fact I have posted about that a number of different times. I have said exactly what you have said about that is how it is so it is good for paramedics to know that rather than how it used to be.

My response you have quoted was to a completely different point. It was to members of the general public essentially saying anyone ringing 999 for MH crisis (hcps, relatives etc) or paramedics taking those with MH crisis to A&E were ridiculous as everyone knows A&E isn't for those with mental illness.

Unfortunately, sometimes people do have to come to A&E because there is not a separate dep. for mental health.

The poster also claimed noone is treated in A&E for mental illness when actually it does happen. Meds can be prescribed etc just as for those with physical health.

A&E doesn't work well for those with SMI, but sometimes it's all we've got!

OP posts:
SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 21:54

@Mucky1

My brother has fairly significant auditory and visual hallucinations and all of his care is conducted in the community now thankfully. He was sectioned once about 20 yrs ago for a short while but since then he's been on a pretty even keel. If he was to have some down time he couldn't get out of he's been given the tools to help himself he knows who to ring if he's in a spiral . AnE wouldn't have been an appropriate place to take him if he became ill they aren't equipped to handle these kinds of complex cases it would be a waste of time. Can I ask those waiting years for help have you thought of accessing some help from local mental health charity's or self funding? Not ideal and I know you shouldn't have to but desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures. I can only imagine how hard it must be trying to live your life and keep yourself alive when you're literally in the pits of despair 😞 I really do hope things are sorted soon.
Great to hear your brother is able to manage his illness in the community Smile
OP posts:
SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 21:55

@linerforlife

You realise that the paramedics don't get to choose where they take people right? They have a set of protocols to follow according to how the patient is presenting. That's their job.
They take them to A&E? What's your point?
OP posts:
SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 21:58

@AlizeeEasy - yes, it is such a common theme. And yes, very often from MH teams too. It really can have such an effect on mental health. I mean not surprising as by continually be told one thing but reality being different is know to affect someone's mental health.

OP posts:
SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 22:12

@FateHasRedesignedMost

you do realise that being actively suicidal is an emergency? If A&E is not the place, why are there mental health teams working in A&E? How do these teams manage to treat their patients if it is not possible? Why are hcps like therapists told to ring 999 in an emergency? Why do paramedics attend these calls?

Yes being actively suicidal is an emergency, and most patients who have made a serious attempt (especially a one off attempt or co-morbid with a serious MH condition like schizophrenia or psychotic depression) are admitted and treated on an acute ward or in a 136 suite, or sent via secure ambulance to PICU.

If you call 999 and say you plan to end your life, they have to take you at your word and attend, and transport you to hospital. The paramedics don’t have access to your MH history, they go by what the dispatcher passes on and how you present.

If you get to A&E and the MH team realise you’ve had multiple similar admissions, or have chronic EUPD that hasn’t responded to acute inpatient help in the past, or that you’ve made several ‘cry for help’ attempts on your life they are less likely to admit you to an acute ward. If you ask for admission they may document that as ‘seeking admission’. They cannot legally section you unless you refuse to be admitted and they think you’re unsafe to go home!

Sadly a lot of patients with EUPD follow a pattern of behaviours, which make staff wary and less understanding when someone is keen for admission. Admission can’t cure EUPD and sometimes makes it much worse. Typically it doesn’t respond well to antidepressants, antipsychotic medications or standard therapy. That’s why many patients get referred to community services, group therapy, DBT, outpatient psychology etc.

It doesn’t mean they don’t care, but they can’t admit everyone who presents to A&E, if you can be treated in the community it keeps a bed free for someone who desperately needs it (eg they’ve just come out of ICU after an OD or are experiencing a full blown psychotic episode with no capacity to make decisions, weigh up information or safety plan.)

I'm not sure how your response relates but I'm guessing it is a comment on the paramedic saying I would be admitted and I wasn't.

I assume you've not read the thread (don't blame you it is long!)

I was actively suicidal and psychotic at the first A&E admission. I didn't call 999 my therapist did. I'd had no admissions, no attempts on my life, I didn't ask for admission. I was not diagnosed with EUPD.

Following being turned away with no help. I tried to take my own life but was luckily found. Was given no help again.

A few days later I was sectioned. It really should have happened before.

Anyway, just a few things on your comments about EUPD. It is true EUPD is very misunderstood among many staff who have not had much training in that area. Admission can indeed 'cure' EUPD (in terms of not meeting criteria) when the gold standard of DBT is undertaken or sometimes schema/trauma therapy. As I already said it isn't so much that admission in and of itself makes it worse but the situation and environment.

More complex medication/mix of medication is often needed for EUPD as with many SMIs. But yes anti-depressants and anti-psychotics are often used with good effect.

OP posts:
SpringTime2020 · 20/02/2022 22:17

I'm coming across so many of the myths around EUPD on this thread. Luckily, training is very slowly getting out there but it is common for there to not even be one member of staff on an acute ward that understands EUPD!

OP posts:
Toanewstart23 · 21/02/2022 06:15

I don’t think an OP has ever gone on to swiftly to precisely prove the point to make on my post! Grin

@FateHasRedesignedMost

I echo a PP - a brilliant post, thank you for the clarity

SpringTime2020 · 21/02/2022 15:36

@Toanewstart23

I don’t think an OP has ever gone on to swiftly to precisely prove the point to make on my post! Grin

@FateHasRedesignedMost

I echo a PP - a brilliant post, thank you for the clarity

Haha - and your exactly showing again how creepy you are by continuing to read my posts! It's bordering on obsession! Maybe your mental health isn't as great as you think! Grin And yes, @FateHasRedesignedMost post was good. It wasn't anything I didn't already know or that hadn't already been discussed on the thread. It wasn't relevant to my situation either so I just responded with that.

Look I know you're obviously enjoying picking on me for being passionate about my subject. I have autism so yes, I'm a bit different to most people. Please leave me alone now. You are completely detailing the thread and are upsetting me.

OP posts:
Toanewstart23 · 21/02/2022 16:18

@FateHasRedesignedMost

* And yes, @FateHasRedesignedMost post was good.*

You’ve been blessed!!

Ogel · 21/02/2022 16:28

It stems back to a lack of beds as well, the threshold for being sectioned (which isn't the best route anyway for everyone) is ludicrously high at the moment sadly.

SpringTime2020 · 21/02/2022 17:30

[quote Toanewstart23]**@FateHasRedesignedMost

* And yes, @FateHasRedesignedMost post was good.*

You’ve been blessed!![/quote]
What is wrong with you? Do you enjoy upsetting people?

I have agreed with and said many points are good. I have agreed to disagree on others. I have said it was interesting to hear different perspectives.

Have you really got nothing better to do than goad me? That's really quite sad.

OP posts: