If DNA tests at birth were the norm...

[Ironytheoppositeofwrinkly]

Saw a lively Facebook discussion about the ethics of this earlier, but it got me thinking. Do you personally know of any families that would be/would have been torn apart if this was just the done thing when a baby was born?

Well apart from the obvious royal one, I do know someone who is the middle brother of 3, looks nothing like his 2 brothers yet the other 2 are spitting image of one another. People have said all along (when he's not there) that his mum had an affair and he doesn't have the same dad, I do believe it too, he just looks totally different.

I think it'd be a useful thing to have with the increasing numbers of sperm and egg donor babies, the parents can never really be sure if the baby has come from the person they picked out the catalogue or not. I think it'd be useful for any children born to have a record on the birth certificate with confirmation of who the bio parents are, so they are aware from the outset and there's no risk of siblings meeting and having children.

I don’t think that changes anything @miltonj

Either a person has a right to know whether their kids are biologically their own, or they don’t.

I know quite a few families where this would cause some serious drama. I have relations on both sides who were very likely the product of an affair, where most of the adults are aware but the children are not. I also worked with someone who was never 100% but her DD is the spitting imagine of the man she wasn't sure about. He has his own DDs now and they are all so alike but don't know each other. Her DDs purported father has no idea.

I don't know of any families where this would have repercussions. I do dislike the idea of labelling all women who give birth as liars. That's basically what it's saying; no woman can be trusted to be honest about who fathered her child. And that I find deeply unsettling.

I would worry about more women ending up giving birth at home without medical intervention. There will be people who dont want dna tests be ause they dont trust the gorvernment with their dna etc, or women who dont want to be tied to a rapist or an abusive ex for life by making them aware their have a child with them etc

That's basically what it's saying; no woman can be trusted to be honest about who fathered her child. And that I find deeply unsettling.

I agree.

The obsession with Ancestry and DNA is really unfortunate for family privacy. Like the poor woman above whose child's loving and willing Dad she is now terrified of alienating. Some things are better not known.

@Cheekypeach

I don’t think that changes anything *@miltonj*

Either a person has a right to know whether their kids are biologically their own, or they don’t.

You mean every man has the right to batter the woman who has had an affair or been raped?

Domestic violence risk is at the highest during pregnancy and post natal period. And this would add the risk of giving them a reason to be enraged?

I’m not sure who this would even benefit, aside from people who love the DRAMA?

Committing to a long term relationship, or to raising a child together requires trust from both sides. Just as a man is relying on his partner not tricking him into raising another bloke’s child, she’s relying on him not being a cocklodger, having a hidden family or any other kind of betrayal. It’s a risk we all take when we commit to someone else.

I don’t understand why the public should fund a scheme like this, when the main beneficiaries are a tiny amount of adult men?

So all women would be labelled as though they all have casual sex and can't be trusted to say who the father is. Just wow!

You mean every man has the right to batter the woman who has had an affair or been raped?

Yes that’s exactly what I meant.

Not 🙄

It may be a controversial viewpoint but I don’t believe a woman has the right to dupe a man into thinking he has fathered a child even in cases of rape.

@Cheekypeach

It may be a controversial viewpoint but I don’t believe a woman has the right to dupe a man into thinking he has fathered a child even in cases of rape.

Even if finding out could very well result in her death? She doesn't have the right to protect herself?

@Cheekypeach

It may be a controversial viewpoint but I don’t believe a woman has the right to dupe a man into thinking he has fathered a child even in cases of rape.

What about her right not to tell a rapist/abuser he’s fathered her child? Presumably that would be the outcome of such a scheme - fathers would be notified. You can’t imagine any circumstances where it would be better for a man not to know?

If you did this you risk women being 'exposed'. In many cases this potentially puts their life at risk.

Yes their child would know their parentage, but at what price? Is it in their interest to always know the truth? It is debatable in many cases.

On the other hand blokes could be tracked down more easily for maintenance. There is also the potential to track criminals more easily.

But that really is the can of worms. As it stands the police can only keep your DNA on file if you are convicted.

Do we want a huge database of our dna out there? What could it be used for? The assumption that it would be for society's benefit is a few Hollywood movies short of the probable realities. The potential for beaucratic kafkaesque nightmares is very real. If someone has your dna on file, you can alter the file to claim someone else was there. The information this data holds is invaluable - its a hackers paradise. You run the risk of state sponsored attacks and the development of weapons to target either individuals or groups. Or other espionage type issues.

Then theres the commercial side of this. How much is the information worth to insurers? Would this limit your life opportunities? Or next frontier is indeed those with certain dna qualities perhaps being favoured for sports or certain jobs. Like being born poor, being born with the wrong dna will be a handicap - perhaps greater than race. Then there the idea of 'precrime' which minority report touched on - with some people maybe being deemed to be predesposed to commit crime - but only to a certain degree of accuracy.

And the medical ones. Would you want to know that you had a 80% chance of not living part 40. And if you knew that, what would it do to your attitude to life? Would it encourage people to go on mass shootings as revenge as they approached their life expectancy. Or lead to people never bothering to try to seek a career as it 'pointless'. Would you really want to know that you are likely to die of dementia or a very painful disease?

Think of potential of genocide on steriods with this.

Pandoras box may well be already open and this is all an inevitability we are on the road to.

My point is you need to think WAY beyond the idea that it will help paternity issues in a good way. It also has a remarkably dark and deeply unsettling set of issues that it could unlock.

@Blossomtoes

Why bother? Most babies look exactly like their dads when they’re born.

My daughter looks like a mix now, but just after birth she looked exactly like me.

Can you imagine a rapist being notified they had a child. And the mother being unable to stop access if they wanted it. The onus would effectively be on the woman to prove it was rape rather than consentual, and even then there is no guarantee that a judge would rule in her favour, potentially arguing that its in the best interests of the child to know their father reguardless.

'Forced paternity' really has far more potential to put women at risk rather than benefit women. Women might be financially better off for it, but we already know that men find ways to cheat the system (self employment being the big one).

Women not being in control of when they action paternity is a loss of power for women and should be seen as this.

@NeverDropYourMooncup

But your scenario is incredibly rare and basically the most extreme outcome imaginable. What if that abuser found out the child wasn’t his through other means, 10 years down the line? If women knew they would be caught out via DNA, it would encourage them to be honest from the outset before complicated knots gets tied and bonds are formed between the father and child.

@Theyellowflamingo the way I understood this, was that the DNA would only be tested in relation to the male that would be on the birth certificate. Not cross referenced with the rest of the country.

@Cheekypeach
Yes my other auntie does know. It was swept under the carpet. Literally everyone knows including my grandparents. The only people that don't know is my cousin and maybe my other cousins who are her siblings. I'm sure it will come out someday, but I feel so bad for them all Iv just cut myself away.

[quote riodgh]@Cheekypeach
Yes my other auntie does know. It was swept under the carpet. Literally everyone knows including my grandparents. The only people that don't know is my cousin and maybe my other cousins who are her siblings. I'm sure it will come out someday, but I feel so bad for them all Iv just cut myself away. [/quote]
Oh my god. How awful for her and for you. Selfish bunch of people.

Do you not know the meaning of “most” @bedheadedzombie?

@Namechangedforanonimity

If it was to come about now mine would be.

I was raped, found out 2 weeks later I was pregnant. There was a guy who was interested in me so I had sex with him to decieve him into thinking he was the dad.

Not for financial reasons, just because I couldn't bring myself to have an abortion and I didn't want my child to know anything about their conception.

We weren't together and I moved shortly after

Long story short, he moved too to be near dc. They adore each other and he's an involved father.

Now dc is 8 and I absolutely know one day with ancestry and all that stuff this is going to come out and destroy my dc and me and him.

If I had been thinking clearly I would never have done this and regret it every single day, I left it too long and can't see a way out now at all.

I'm so sorry for what happened to you. What a difficult situation to be in. I wonder if there is anyone who you could consult for advice about your situation and what would be best for your child.. maybe a child psychologist? Or maybe a charity? Nspcc?

@Blossomtoes

Do you not know the meaning of “most” *@bedheadedzombie*?

ODFOD

@Namechangedforanonimity

If it was to come about now mine would be.

I was raped, found out 2 weeks later I was pregnant. There was a guy who was interested in me so I had sex with him to decieve him into thinking he was the dad.

Not for financial reasons, just because I couldn't bring myself to have an abortion and I didn't want my child to know anything about their conception.

We weren't together and I moved shortly after

Long story short, he moved too to be near dc. They adore each other and he's an involved father.

Now dc is 8 and I absolutely know one day with ancestry and all that stuff this is going to come out and destroy my dc and me and him.

If I had been thinking clearly I would never have done this and regret it every single day, I left it too long and can't see a way out now at all.

@Namechangedforanonimity That's a very sad story. Sounds like you did the best you could, in a horrendous situation. No judgement from me

I wonder if counselling, or social work, could help you to find a way to tell your child and the person who believes himself to be the father. Or an adoption agency, as they will deal with birth / identity issues, although not quite your scenario

If you continue to put it off, there's a risk they find out in an unplanned way, which could go horribly wrong

If you keep waiting, I fear that "the right time to tell" will never come, and it will just become more and more difficult as your child gets older.

At aged 8, I think you could perhaps still get away with saying that you had decided to wait and tell them when they were starting to understand how babies are made. If you wait until aged 18, then they will feel their whole childhood has been based on a lie
[Flowers]

He doesn't know who his father is, that's a disgrace!