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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

MP's will debate changing the Gender Recognition Act

163 replies

Witheringtong · 16/02/2022 22:10

On Monday 21 February, MP's will debate reforming the Gender Recognition Act.
committees.parliament.uk/committee/326/petitions-committee/news/160946/reform-of-the-gender-recognition-act-to-be-debated-by-mps/

Where do you stand? Since there are only 2 voting options the vote can't reflect all the possible options so you might have to add a comment.
Personally, I dont see how safeguarding or sex based rights can be upheld as long as people can change their legal sex marker. I'm also opposed to convicted sex offenders or violent offenders being able to change their legal details, let alone be places in a women's prison.

AIBU - The GRA should be changed to make it easier for any person to change their legal sex markers, name and birth certificate.

YANBU - The GRA should not be changed.

OP posts:
ENoeuf · 16/02/2022 22:13

For me the solution for both ‘sides’ is to recognise sex and gender as very separate and enshrine rights in law for them. I don’t think changing sex on a birth certificate should be possible except in very limited (intersex related) circumstances but we can’t put the genie back in the lamp.

JellySaurus · 16/02/2022 22:23

Neither.

It is a bad, ill-considered law, that creates vastly more problems than it solves.

It should be repeated.

JellySaurus · 16/02/2022 22:24

Repealed, not repeated.

ohhooh · 16/02/2022 22:29

I think it's tough but YANBU. I don't think anyone should just be able to "self identify" as something that is a protected characteristic (if that's the right phrase?).

Witheringtong · 16/02/2022 22:34

Yes, thats the right phrase. That doesn't feel right to me either, and it wouldn't even if no actual harm could be proven.

OP posts:
Witheringtong · 16/02/2022 23:48

So far the vote is 62 against, 3 in favour.

OP posts:
MoonlightFancy · 16/02/2022 23:51

You might find that people are a little scared to get behind their thoughts on topics like this. I’ve been called a TERF and shamed awfully just recently for suggesting that it’s not a good idea in what I thought was polite conversation.

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 17/02/2022 00:01

@ohhooh

I think it's tough but YANBU. I don't think anyone should just be able to "self identify" as something that is a protected characteristic (if that's the right phrase?).
So would you also be against people self identifying as gay, sexual orientation also being a protected characteristic?

It’s hard AF being trans, why make it harder ?

Ionlydomassiveones · 17/02/2022 00:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Fungirls · 17/02/2022 00:10

We cannot turn back time and actually developing better legislation could address a lot of concerns. For example how do people legally de-transition? Currently there is no mechanism to allow Keira Bell (and others) to legally de-transition.

Legally distinguish between “full transition” and “gender fluid”. For example, Eddie Izzard uses “boy mode” and “girl mode” but as far as I’m aware has not legally transitioned. A lot of people may fit in this category and the law needs to set out how they should be treated e.g. can a person be misgendered if they swap genders depending on the day of the week.

Legal protection of children who suffer body/gender dysphoria from having medical treatment that cannot be fully reversed e.g. puberty blockers, surgery etc. (as determined by independent rigorous scientific studies).

Legally reinforcing and expanding existing sex based provisions such as sports, schools, prisons etc.

Legal definitions e.g. sex = male or female, gender = ?, woman = adult human female, transphobia etc. so everyone has the same understanding. Changing existing legislation to be clear if it relates to biological sex or gender e.g. gender pay gap becomes sex pay gap.

Legal right not to be outed (no pronouns,) .

Legally requiring public bodies (may be wider) to record biological sex, GRC sex and gender and being clear which is being used when publishing statistical analysis etc. This is important to ensure preventative healthcare is inclusive I.e. trans men are invited for regular smears etc. and other service provisions are accurately planned and targeted.

Including Maya’s ruling so biological sex is a defined belief and therefore a protected characteristic.

Etc………

Enough4me · 17/02/2022 00:12

YANBU.

'Identify as', means choose to be for now, it's the same as make believe. Rapists will lie and make believe themselves into anything to get access to vulnerable people. How the safeguarding issues don't stand out to everyone amazes me.

Enough4me · 17/02/2022 00:16

Gay people aren't pretending to be gay e.g. for a day, they are homosexual in the same way heterosexual people are attracted to the opposite sex and bisexuals to both.

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 17/02/2022 00:19

@Enough4me

Gay people aren't pretending to be gay e.g. for a day, they are homosexual in the same way heterosexual people are attracted to the opposite sex and bisexuals to both.
Trans people aren’t pretending to be trans „for a day“ either.
sst1234 · 17/02/2022 00:22

Oh yes this is absolutely what they should be debating. Every other problem that we pay our politicians to solve has been solved. Right?

ashitghost · 17/02/2022 00:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

AlexaShutUp · 17/02/2022 00:25

So would you also be against people self identifying as gay, sexual orientation also being a protected characteristic?

It’s hard AF being trans, why make it harder ?

I don't understand your analogy with gay people.

As far as I can see, "self identifying" as gay doesn't put anyone else at risk or encroach on anyone else's rights. Indeed, it is hard to see how anyone could be considered gay if they didn't self identify as such.

The trans issue is different because there is a risk to others, no matter how small. If men could identify themselves as trans women in order to get access to single sex spaces for women, the rights of women are impacted. Surely you can see that this is different?

I genuinely don't want trans people to suffer, but I don't want their rights to encroach on mine or on the rights of other women.

I don't have strong feelings about people self identifying with regard to gender as I still don't actually know what gender actually is. I don't get the concept of "feeling like a woman". However, I don't think gender, whatever it is, should be confused with sex, and I do not think that men should be able to self identify as anything in order to get access to women's spaces. It isn't safe.

Enough4me · 17/02/2022 00:32

Trans do pick and choose. Eddie Izzard chooses what to be and isn't one identified label. He highlights how this isn't real (like sex and sexuality), it simply isn't being, but is pretending.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 17/02/2022 00:33

So would you also be against people self identifying as gay, sexual orientation also being a protected characteristic?

Gay people don't need to self identify as gay. And yes, sexual orientation is a protected characteristic which defines gay as same SEX attracted.
Claiming lesbian now means 'gender' attracted is homophobic bullshit.

SEX is also a protected characteristic. Funny how that one gets ignored though.

Enough4me · 17/02/2022 00:36

Sexual stereotyping, sexual harassment and sexual abuse are all real... but denied and minimised as they don't fit the new ideology.

Clymene · 17/02/2022 00:40

The GRA is a terrible law and it should be repealed.

There is no need for any complexity about identities being enshrined in law. Identify however you want and you should never be discriminated against because of it.

TheMarzipanDildo · 17/02/2022 00:52

“It’s hard AF being trans, why make it harder ?“

Imagine you were a male sex offender who targeted women and was about to go to prison. What’s to lose from identifying as a woman and going to women’s prison? Is that not a fucked up idea?

Women have been sexually assaulted by male bodied people in prison.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 17/02/2022 00:56

We are also still waiting for anyone to give us a clear, consistent, logical, measurable definition of what 'trans' now means.

It used to be clear. Medically diagnosed transsexuals with dysphoria. They are who were meant to be protected under gender reassignment This is no longer allowed.

Now it is whatever every individual claims it is. Even trans people can't seem to agree on a definition!

It now includes part time cross dressers, males with no dysphoria, people who make no changes to their appearance but still claim to have a thing called a 'gender identity' and students who identify as cats and emojis ffs.

So, what exactly now needs protecting that wouldn't fall under religious belief? Because that is all the new gender identity ideology is.

JellySaurus · 17/02/2022 06:28

@Fungirls

We cannot turn back time and actually developing better legislation could address a lot of concerns. For example how do people legally de-transition? Currently there is no mechanism to allow Keira Bell (and others) to legally de-transition.

Legally distinguish between “full transition” and “gender fluid”. For example, Eddie Izzard uses “boy mode” and “girl mode” but as far as I’m aware has not legally transitioned. A lot of people may fit in this category and the law needs to set out how they should be treated e.g. can a person be misgendered if they swap genders depending on the day of the week.

Legal protection of children who suffer body/gender dysphoria from having medical treatment that cannot be fully reversed e.g. puberty blockers, surgery etc. (as determined by independent rigorous scientific studies).

Legally reinforcing and expanding existing sex based provisions such as sports, schools, prisons etc.

Legal definitions e.g. sex = male or female, gender = ?, woman = adult human female, transphobia etc. so everyone has the same understanding. Changing existing legislation to be clear if it relates to biological sex or gender e.g. gender pay gap becomes sex pay gap.

Legal right not to be outed (no pronouns,) .

Legally requiring public bodies (may be wider) to record biological sex, GRC sex and gender and being clear which is being used when publishing statistical analysis etc. This is important to ensure preventative healthcare is inclusive I.e. trans men are invited for regular smears etc. and other service provisions are accurately planned and targeted.

Including Maya’s ruling so biological sex is a defined belief and therefore a protected characteristic.

Etc………

That would be nice.

Unfortunately 'Legal right not to be outed' is completely irreconcilable with all those aims to protect anything sex-based.

FourTeaFallOut · 17/02/2022 07:14

It's so rude to further enshrine in law that a woman is a bunch of regressive stereotypes that can be opted in to with a simple declaration of pink brain and pink feelings. It's a damaging and offensive lie that betrays our sex.

ohhooh · 17/02/2022 07:45

@brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

So would you also be against people self identifying as gay, sexual orientation also being a protected characteristic?

It’s hard AF being trans, why make it harder ?

Someone identifying as gay isn't really the same thing in my eyes, because that doesn't impact in the same way.

I don't think that fact it's hard "af" being trans according to you should mean that women should just shut up and put up, personally I don't think someone should just be able to self identify as a women and get access to spaces / services meant for women just by saying they are one. The use of the word woman needs to be specific, imo not meaning someone who decides they are one.

It's peak male privilege in my eyes that men decide they want to become women, and all of us who were born as a woman are meant to just accept this and let them into services / spaces just because they are saying they're a woman. It's entitled.