To be tearing my hair out at bedtime?!

[ParalysisByAnalysis]

Oh god help.

My 4.5 year old has become an absolute demon at bedtime over the last few weeks.

She’s in there right now. Screaming and tantrumming and it just goes on and on and on and it makes me want to walk out of here.

She’s so well behaved most of the time. It’s just bedtime. Apparently it’s just that she doesn’t want to go to bed. She wants to play. But it’s 8pm, she’s tired (nursery all day) and that’s late enough.

Eventually she will blow herself out and fall asleep but I hate that. I hate her falling asleep so upset. Husband just went in to offer her a story. But no. She wants to go downstairs to find her (imaginary) book (so that she can run away and avoid bed for longer) she won’t just lie and listen to a story.

She’s wonderful but the most stubborn child I’ve ever met. Entirely single minded and like a dog with a bone once she gets going. Which to an extent is a quality I hope she carries with her into adulthood because she’s no pushover but Jesus Christ it’s hard at bedtime.

She is screaming like we are torturing her. We’re going to end up with social services at the door at this rate I hate that every lovely day ends like this.

You need your evenings back to relax and recharge and be the best mum you can be.

Un-mumsnetty hugs to you, OP.

We just sat in the ds, if he tried to do anything but lie there and go to sleep we said we would leave (whoever was sitting with him) and he could go to sleep by himself.

We never had any battles at bedtime, and it never took long for him to drop off as he was relaxed.

It worked for us, understand it isn't for everyone.

When my 4 year old started doing this, I fixed it by giving him a chocolate button in the morning if he went to bed nicely and slept all night. Worked a treat! I also got some new audio book CDs which helped loads (he already listened to a story at night but had got bored of all of them)

Thank you everyone. It’s cathartic just to chat it through and there’s so much helpful stuff here.

We used to sit with her - some nights she’d go over no problem, but most she would carry on (happily!) and refuse to settle. I just didn’t have time to sit there with her until 9.30pm, too much to do for the morning. I needed my evenings back.

We’ve never had much luck with reward chats with either of our girls. It was always bloody bedtime. They always like the idea of them but in the moment, staying up or whatever was the most important thing to them and they wouldn’t be arsed with the reward chart.

I honestly could’ve written every single word of your OP!

Currently sat in my 3yo DD room after she hysterically screamed when I put her down and left to put my own PJs on after our bath.

Bedtime seems to be getting longer and longer for us as well, despite having a really set routine. She just absolutely hates me leaving her.

So no advice, but many sympathies!

DS went through a similar phase at 4. It did pass, I promise. We took advice and talked to him when totally calm. We had a sticker chart which at first was for every ten minutes without crying and gradually over four weeks was for settling anc staying in bed all night. Big prizes - he wanted Lego sets. It worked well and we also discussed with him what he wanted from us - he suggested a nightlight and music. Good luck - it will improve

For what it's worth Op my kids are similar, they just have immense stamina. I don't think parenting is entirely to blame for that (although genetics might be). My 5 year old has an 8pm bedtime. When she was 3 she was frequently up until 10 or 11 because she just hated sleep and was able to fight it off, even lying in bed in the dark.
Star chart has helped a lot, she gets a star for not talking after bedtime and that was how she kept herself awake.

We had a problem like this. But it's been solved now so I'll try and explain. It might not work for you, but I guess you might try anything.

In the morning tell her it made you sad that she didn't go to end. Ask her if she remembers what happened. (if she was screaming/crying she might have gone into crisis mode and not remember) tell her you want her to be safe and grow which is why she needs to go to bed. Tell her that tonight, there will be no screens from 6pm, she will have bath, glass of milk, teeth, story and cuddle (we have got water bottle too) and then bed. Tell her you 'expect her to stay in bed' - we found this language was good. Tell her if she comes down she'll be takne back up again.
Tell her you will be back in 5 mins after putting her to bed to check on her and give her a cuddle.
So basically follow through with all the above - after the first five minute cuddle, if she's still awake, say you will come back in ten mins for a thumbs up. Then if still awake tell her you'll be back in 15 mins. If she keeps coming down, just take her back up and only say 'ill come and check on you in 5 minutes' and basically don't give in.

Me and dh spent the 6-7 time with the kids but only one of us (me) did the check backs for consistency. The first night, I must have gone up 5 times and he came down a few times. The second night, three times, the third night twice and since then he's 95% been faster by the time I get to him for the first 5 min check! I'm in awe and shock this worked but its been a game changer.

Now the problem is the 23month old wakes up at stupid o clock for snacks 😂 why can't they both sleep???

It has been a while since we have tried a reward chart. I’ll have a think about that.

This sounds exhausting, you have my sympathies

Another idea is to try to switch up the routine a bit. I sometimes do bath and pyjamas before their 6pm dinner, that way, after dinner the kids just play and there are fewer steps (ie opportunities to resist) before bed. It means that we often have enough time to spend a full 30 mins chatting and reading books before bed, which gives them plenty of time (and undivided attention) with me or DH, which again helps them relax.

They are 3 and 5 and sleep at 715ish. Usually yawning by 7pm in term time.

I find that some kids struggle to settle with siblings in the room. Have you tried settling her first and then sending her older sister up. In a way she is probably over tired but being kept awake. It might take a few nights of gradually bringing her bedtime forward and then work on teaching your older child to creep up 30 mins later.

That sounds really hard. My 3.5 Yr old has had me in bits with repeated night waking. Either coming into our bed at 3am and being so wriggly etc it's impossible to get back to sleep, or shrieking his head off at 3am meaning one of us ended up sleeping in his floor. It had been going on for months and I was in a state, and getting really angry about it which was really bad for everyone.

I've recently told him how sad and tired it's making me, that it really really has to stop. He got upset, he just likes the company at night (although he shares a room with his 6yr old brother, he's not alone). I've told him that if he does 10 nights in a row of staying in his own bed til his gro clock comes on, AND not shrieking, he can get a really good present. He's on night 7, and trying very hard.

So it's maybe not a great parenting technique, but it's a suggestion- might bribery work?

I was like this as a child - my mum stuck a tv in my bedroom probably not the recommended method these days!

Yeah I think 8pm is late too. I have a 4 year old and 5 year old and bedtime is 7pm for both. Usually starting to get ready for bed around 6:45pm. Occasionally it's closer to 7:30pm before they're actually in bed, but that's not often. Bedtimes are sometimes later during holidays etc, but I think both my kids would be overtired if 8pm was a regular bedtime (and the older one is about 5 and a half). I would definitely try to bring bedtime earlier and see if that helps.

Just trying to think around the edges of the box here (rather than outside it) - if it's around wanting play, could you bring into your routine saying good night to the toys in the play room - putting them to bed, so to speak, so it backs up the idea no more playing and it's bed time? Then being quiet because the toys are sleeping - a tiny little bit of a game, but not too energetic/stimulating? Do they have a bath/shower every night? Maybe alternate it to every other night, just so you can try and have some wind down time / one on one time with each child - even if it's just 5 mins for a quick chat or cuddle. Although routine is good for kids, maybe part of it is that it feels too rushed/rigourous? As I said, just throwing some ideas out that might help (or might not).

I think you should try a week or 2 of consistent earlier bedtime. She sounds overtired.

My 5.5 year old was similar at bedtime until the last few months - so firstly you have all my sympathy! She was very chilled and easy during the day but as soon as it was bedtime it was like a switch was flipped and she’d run around, refuse to do teeth, get out of bed - anything to avoid bedtime basically. I think she hated being on her own but staying with her whilst she fell asleep could be anywhere up to 1.5 hours a night and I couldn’t do it anymore!
We cracked it with a reward chart for staying in bed/falling asleep on her own, and audiobooks after a proper story first. Oh, and the Moshi app for a few months too.
It still takes her a while to drift off - she normally goes up at 7:30 but doesn’t usually sleep til 8;45 ish - but I can now head downstairs around 8pm so it makes the world of difference to my evening. I still head up and sit with her for a few minutes most evenings but I can eat supper/watch TV/do jobs/chat to my husband too now!
Good luck - it does and will get better for you - and her! - as she gets older 🙂

The only thing I found worked was ignoring them.

Bath PJs story 2 mum downstairs TV and a cup of tea and ignored everything - even if they can in the room I pretended they weren’t there!

Soon gave up.

Reward charts didn’t work for my daughter. She was desperate for the stickers but if she didn’t get them for something it made bedtime worse and doing it in the morning wasn’t timely enough. I got the book ‘The rabbit who wants to fall asleep’ it’s like hypnosis - first time I read it she was asleep before the end of page 2. We now read one story or a chapter of a book and she gets an audio story. Whilst it means 2 bedtimes it might be good for your youngest to go first and spend that time with you and be able to go to sleep without their sibling reading and main light on. My 6.5 year old has gone through these stages where, as you say, the evening just becomes a battle and you change things as they seem to work and then stop. I allowed co-sleeping when she was 4 as she went to sleep quickly, but then she didn’t and I stopped getting a decent sleep so I had to work on getting her back into her own bed and back sleeping by herself. But we do what we think is the best at the time and make changes when it’s right for us. Good luck.

DS is 3.5 and since we've increased nursery days he's in bed before seven or he turns into the devil. We do a story with me or DH, then put an audio book on his yoto player at seven, the timer is set for half an hour but he rarely makes it past ten minutes despite being adamant that he isn't tired. He's got a selection of stories so we let him choose. He actually prefers the longer ones that are a bit above his age bracket and that's good because they don't finish within ten minutes and have him demanding another! He's currently listening to the magic wishing chair, having exhausted the magic far away tree over the last six months over and over again.... I'm actually a big fan of the player, there are factual podcasts as well as music and stories, no ads, no screen. We have the app on our phones so he can listen to stories in the car too. He also takes it when he stays at grandparents' so it's a consistent thing for him. He rarely asks for TV anymore and likes to play with his toys with a story or music on in the background.

Have you tried feeding and bathing her as early as possible then just leaving her? Let her roam around while you get on with your evening? No telly just boring adult chit chat, cooking etc.

We just sat in the ds, if he tried to do anything but lie there and go to sleep we said we would leave (whoever was sitting with him) and he could go to sleep by himself.

This is what we do. Unfortunately it can take 45 minutes or so to read 3 stories and get him to drop off, so we alternate nights. A Gro-clock works for mornings (he wakes us at 7) but if he has napped at nursery he's up until 8.30/9pm whether it's dark, the clock is on a star - nothing will get him to sleep earlier. He basically needs a bit under 11 hours sleep, so if we put him to bed before 7 he's awake by 5.30.

Our tactic, when we can face it, is going to be as others have suggested - wait outside, gradually increase time, then pop back in.

We have had similar with our DS who is also 4.5 saying he doesn't like bedtime, sleep is boring and he wants to play. We are coming out the other end of it - some things which may have worked -

1. He had a nightlight but we got another which he picked - its a colour changing rocket which he loves to watch
2. He gets a chapter of a longer book before lights out - currently The BFG
3. Before we go upstairs he picks out something that he wants to play with in the morning before nursery and he leaves it out ready for the morning
4. He picks what order he does things in before story time - toilet/teeth/PJs - he is in charge.
5. We set a timer and snuggle in bed with him for 5 mins. When the timer goes off we say night night, leave the room and say we'll come back and check him in 5 or 10 mins. If we go back and he's still awake we will be back in another 5 or 10 mins.
6. We bought a cheap daily routine chart from ebay. The novelty has now worn off and we don't use it any more but for the first few weeks he was really keen on ticking all the bedtime tasks off.

Good luck! 4 year olds are something else!

Ive empathy! I've 2-year of twins.
Normally they go to bed without problems, but tonight one of them had an epic tantrum! She wanted to go downstairs to play - she screamed and roared and tried to climb out of the cot.
I didn't know what to do - I tried talking to her in a very low, calm voice, saying that it was "sleepy-time". This enraged her!
I then just stood beside her cot, not looking at her or speaking, while she raged. She wouldn't let me hug her.
I had a work meeting at 8:30pm, but she was still roaring. I logged into Zoom, and stayed on my call for 10 mins, while she roared in the background.
Then I went back into her and finally she asked for a hug. So we had quiet hugs while reciting our nighttime routine of all the people who love her. And then finally she fell asleep at 9pm.
Dreading tomorrow night, in case it's the same. At least her twin slept through it all.