Do you have faith in the NHS after covid?

[Plumface]

Given that patients were discharged to nursing homes, and other patients not admitted despite hospitals not being full, also that GPs and dentists seemed to close down, but PR/marketing story professionals still got paid, are you still happy to entrust your care to the NHS?

YABU = I trust the NHS and it's great
YANBU = I don't trust the NHS

@Stripyhoglets1

Seen a few similar threads/posts like this one. Getting the rhetoric out there that NHS is not fit for purpose and needs to be run on a different model (one which will cost us more and allow the torys mates to make a ton of money). So when they do actually do destroy the NHS we will just lie down and take it.

It is this narrative that is so short sighted and partly creating the conditions for this crisis. It’s not a binary choice between the nhs as it is now and a private health service. You do realise that many other economically advanced countries around the world manage to have a functioning Public Health Service ? Why can’t we have a grow up conversation about that?

The NHS as an institution failed decades ago. It is full of waste and inefficiency. It doesn't matter which party is in Government, because none of them are willing to tackle the fundamental problems.
Most staff work hard, but the financial and admin systems need to be urgently scrapped and something fit for purpose put in place.

The creation of the NHS was a political decision, its continued existence and funding are likewise political decisions. As a socialist I believe the general tax funded model of universal health care to be a fair one. And in my experience the private companies and agencies I deal with on a daily basis are much less efficient and offer poorer service and face little or no consequences for their piss poor performance. So capitalism doesn't deliver great outcomes so the alternative is not something I would favour personally in health care. As for trust that's an odd way of putting it. Do I trust my train driver or taxi driver both have my life in their hands everyday? Risk is part of life after all.

The problem with discussing the NHS like grown ups is that the Tories can be trusted with it about as much as a crocodile can be trusted with a nice juicy steak.

There are huge vested interests at play both from Tory MPs and donors. They just want to cream in a fat profit, they don't really care about providing a good and affordable service.

Most of my experiences with the NHS have been great, though postnatal wards are a traumatic battlefield but I wouldn't mind some reorganisation to make it more efficient. I even think some insurance-based system would provide greater incentives for people to live healthily. What I don't want is a corporate money making machine that gives poorer people shorter, more miserable lives because they get a more basic version of healthcare.

Speaking from a purely personal point of view, no I don’t trust the NHS. I’ve seen too many family members left with significant, and sometimes irreversible, damage due to its lack of care and incompetence.

Trying to get a GP appointment is nearly impossible. Ring at 8am for same day only but they don’t have a queuing system so the line is permanently engaged. Should you actually get through a GP will call any time between 10-6 which is no use if you have to work.

On the other hand, my dog was unwell the other night. Had seen the emergency vet and was back home with the necessary meds in just over an hour! I know I pay for that privilege but it’s madness that an animal gets treated better than a human being.

We pay less on health care per head of population than most other countries including the US. Personally, I'd wish the government would stop wasting ££££ on constant reorganisation. Which they decided to do even during a pandemic.

@FangsForTheMemory

Are you shilling for the Tories, OP? You sound as though you are. The NHS is plagued by chronic underfunding, and that is because the Tories want to replace it with a private health system that will make them and their friends money. Questions like your last, that suggest the problem is with the NHS per se, only serve to promote the Tory agenda.

Explain chronic underfunding. It rather sounds like you are regurgitating what you read in the press and throwing statements around without knowing what they mean. Is 20% budget increase in 10 years chronic underfunding?

I do have faith in the nhs but also recognise that we have been lucky.
My GP has been fantastic. Dgc was born during covid and both dc and dgc received top quality care before/during/after the birth.
As a patient and as a nurse I feel that I’ve received and provided good care. We had to be more creative at times during covid to provide that care but in my trust I believe that we did well.

@miltonj

It's not the nhs though is it? It's the government who have been making cuts for years prior to the pandemic.

I've dealt with the health care system in other European countries and I can tell you, we are extremely, extremely lucky to have the nhs. It's the best thing about the UK.

What cuts? Do you have any figures to back this up or are you just saying it because you heard other people say it a few times? NHS spending in 2020 excluding Covid was almost £150bn. 10 years earlier it was 20% less.

The NHS isn’t great and hasn’t been for a very long time. There are pockets of greatness and some wonderful individuals but as an entity no it’s not great, it’s actually an embarrassment and not fit for purpose. We need a semi privatised system where those who are most in need get entirely free care and others pay a small proportion per year up to a limit. It would make a huge difference.

@sst1234

Can you explain the context behind a 20% budget increase in 10 years (assuming this is true)?

Given that the population aged 65+ (the main consumer of healthcare servcies) has increased more than 20%? In an ageing society, more funds need to be given to healthcare to maintain the same level of service. The question is, has funding exceeded the increased demand? And that seems to be no.

My dad was in loads of pain yesterday and my mum called 111 around 4pm . By 8pm he was admitted to a ward after an ambulance being sent within half an hour and x rays done and broken hip diagnosed within 4 hours. From reading horror stories in here I am so relieved he had such swift and caring treatment from the nhs. Can't stand all the 'not fit for purpose' cliches that get thrown on here constantly .

The NHS, and the individuals who comprise it, have been magnificent and selfless.

OP - you seem confused about delivery and policy. Politicians determine policies (as well as the funding regime in which services are delivered).

[quote Balaboostah]@sst1234

Can you explain the context behind a 20% budget increase in 10 years (assuming this is true)?

Given that the population aged 65+ (the main consumer of healthcare servcies) has increased more than 20%? In an ageing society, more funds need to be given to healthcare to maintain the same level of service. The question is, has funding exceeded the increased demand? And that seems to be no.[/quote]
You don’t have to assume anything, look it up. People keep making a false statements about cuts and it’s simply not true. The ageing population is just one of many reasons that the model is not fit for today’s world. In 1948 like expectancy was different to what it is today. The current funding model simply will not do.
To add, Institutions like the NHS become a bottomless pit over time because of convoluted local funding structures and the beaurocracy that sits behind it. Public sector organizations in general become opaque with no accountability. NHS naturally has become that. With sub par health outcomes compared to other developed countries (and no, US is not the only model out there), and funding that never seems to be enough.

The NHS is simply not fit for purpose anymore.

The only answer always seems to be throw more billions at it rather than actually look at the structure and organisation. We already spend hundreds of billions on the NHS.

The American system is not the only alternative- there are lots of alternatives all across Europe.

@LethargeMarg

My dad was in loads of pain yesterday and my mum called 111 around 4pm . By 8pm he was admitted to a ward after an ambulance being sent within half an hour and x rays done and broken hip diagnosed within 4 hours. From reading horror stories in here I am so relieved he had such swift and caring treatment from the nhs. Can't stand all the 'not fit for purpose' cliches that get thrown on here constantly .

Do you think peoples personal experiences are cliches? Is your experience the only one that matters?

I am very sure the staff are hardworking and doing their best. But i think the service available varies a lot due to not enough staff which is a long term political issue.
My gp has been great. My mums gp terrible. My MIL had good timely surgery, my niece was more or less abandonded after her baby was born.

@familychallenge

I still don't understand why we think the NHS is so great. I have lived in multiple countries. All had a mix of public and private and all had better patient outcomes than the NHS and at lower cost. Most healthcare professionals care deeply about patients and many have half killed themselves in the last 2 years. The NHS is a bureaucratic nightmare that serves neither patients nor staff well.

Perfectly put, I agree with this 100% speaking as a ward-based NHS employee.

@ufucoffee

Can't vote on the app but YABU. My GP surgery is great. Can get appointments really quickly and they offered face to face appointments all through Covid if needed. I live in an area where the local hospitals are rated outstanding and any time I've had to use them I've been seen quickly and my treatment has been excellent. I know some people have had problems during Covid and there are issues with staffing and money wasting but overall thousands of people are successfully treated every day by the NHS. There were mistakes made during Covid yes but I'm looking at the NHS overall, and I'm grateful for it.

Where is this Utopia.

We couldn’t get appointments at the surgery even before Covid. We had to pay for dhs cancer treatment, operations etc (wrong postcode). They failed to diagnose him and dismissed his concerns after presenting with typical symptoms of bowel cancer. Bowel cancer which is rife in dhs family.

They also failed to diagnose me with a slipped disc and left me in agony for 7 years and ultimately wrecked my life because they wouldn’t pay for a £300 mri scan and preferred to rely on hit and miss diagnosing

Loads of other times their penny pinching has led to costs hundreds of thousands times. more expensive or lives being lost.

I think there are a lot of people who work in the NHS who work incredibly hard but the systems in place are designed to waste time and money and there isn’t the flexibility to change to a more convenient and cheaper way of doing something. Even if it is a tiny
thing that wouldn’t impact the patient in any way.

@sst1234

I'm not wedded to the NHS as the only model. I've also lived in countries (in addition to the train wreck of a health system in the US - that REALLY isn't fit for purpose) with a kind of German like funding mechanism through HMOs providing insurance where you had a guaranteed basket of services and meds (which would be determiend by a Govt committee each year) and where you could top with supplementary private insurance, another country with a mixed financing system where you would literally choose your tier of insurance (no frills through to luxury) although as a foreigner I had no choice in that one and had to use employer provided health nsurance so can't comment from experience, and also one with an NHS-like system but with more funding. All the systems had their pluses and minuses but I found that the NHS-like system worked just fine too (although personally preferred the HMO system). It's not the model itself which is the problem for the NHS. There's no reason why it can't be fit for purpose with good management and adequate funding.

(BTW, the main reason behind the increasing elderly population is fertility, increasing life expectancy - other than for the oldest old -plays only a small part)

@NuNameNuMe the shabby GPs only get away with the way they work because of the sheer amount of money they gain automatically having patients on their books via the government and then failing to see most of them. I've been begging to see someone for almost two years. I then got an online private appointment who said I need to be examined the GP still refused to see me citing a phone call was enough so I cried and two hours later I'm in. The system of have money for the number of patients you have instead of the number of patients you see only encourages this.

This is disgusting. I am in poor health and having to fight. I don't have the energy. I know I'm not alone as well.

Agree with PP. I trust the NHS. I do not trust this current government.

I have not trusted medical people for years.
When I was a child I was in hospital on and off for a year with a long term medical problem. The nurses were mean. They’d tap out air bubbles in my drip and then tell me off when I cried as it waggled the cannula in my arm saying “it doesn’t hurt!”
My mum nearly died from peritonitis and the nurses stood at the nurses station giggling and drinking tea why she screamed in pain.
My son was sent home from hospital on the middle of an asthma attack after a dr said he’s just tired. The same happened at our GP.
My gran was pushed in a wheelchair and her feet dragged underneath as she didn’t haven’t the strength to lift them on to the footrests. She came out of hospital bruised from head to toe after falling out of bed repeatedly when they kept forgetting to put the sides up.
My friend was told by her GP she didn’t have cancer. This was her first GP visit after finding a lump. She did have cancer and only got it sorted because she paid!
My MIL has been in hospital for 3 months now and we’ve just found out she is terminally ill. They’ve known since December but despite the family phoning regularly all they got told was “we don’t know what’s wrong with her.” No one ever phoned the family first snd now they’ve been told she’s dying but she can go home for the family to care for her. A family who work and have no medical training. MIL can’t even stand up on her own. She said it’s awful in there with people pressing their call button all the time, calling out for help while e nurses all stand together having a chat and a laugh.
You get the odd good one but how can they do their job when there are so many awful ones.
They say “we’re so busy”. Yes you are meant to be busy, you are at work, that’s the point!

The thing is there may well be better systems elsewhere eg. France or Germany. But you can absolutely bet the only system the tories will be wanting to bring in will be the US insurance only based system. Where you seem.to pay a fortune for insurance but still have to pay.msssive co-pays as well!

The difficulty isn't just money.
We have rolling vacancies at my work that we just can't staff with qualified staff. A team local to us was given a massive grant but have struggled to put it to use as they can't recruit to posts.

What my mental health team needs isn't more money, it's more resources. That's qualified nurses, ots, social workers, doctors and psychologists . We need better resources like hospital beds (local wards have reduced due to recruiting issues), better social care support for options like supported accomodation, and care packages.

Giving us bigger budgets doesn't mean I can provide more interventions because I can't staff it, I can't pay more than the next team or be competitive in recruitment.

Money going to nursing education etc and social care would help us