Drama this is going to hurt

[Thomasina79]

I found the book brilliantly funny. I have worked in admin hospitals and primary care, so can relate re cut backs etc.

Anyone else enjoying this drama, if that’s the right word! True to life. Any doctors, nurses etc anyone?

And in terms of giving “reasons/excuses” at all, we all have our own versions of events that affect our actions. Every single person in the world could say “I did this because of X”. It doesn’t make it ok, but i was trying to explain the context relative to this program.

I find the existence of the programme depressing in the extreme and find the author hateful and misogynistic.

@Averydifferentwoman ok 🤷‍♀️ I don’t feel I need to justify myself to you as a random stranger on the internet.

I thought I’d shown remorse in my paragraph by saying how ashamed I was at these particular incidents. But I know how I feel about it inside, I know I did my absolute best at a time I was drowning. And I also know these where a couple of blips in a career where I’ve done thousands and thousands of good things.

What I wrote is about me as they are my memories and my recollection, my experiences of training. I was explaining how I felt as a junior doctor, in relation to this particular tv show which focuses more on the doctors than on patients, because it’s storyline is coming from a different angle.

The book was OK, but there was a distinct whiff of misogyny about it if I remember correctly, both against the midwives and the mothers themselves (eg. Scoffing at the idea of a woman even thinking about a birth plan or having any control at all). Didn't really get why he specialised in obstetrics if he didn't really like women?

But you wrote about a miscarriage being a bunch of cells, and didn’t go on to expand on the fact that you have (and I’m sure you have) come to realise what an awful thing this was to think / believe.

I don’t think having done good things is automatically something that cancels out the bad. I don’t doubt for a moment you were put in an impossible position. I just don’t like the way the narrative becomes poor us, poor us.

I’ve read the book and am half way through the series.

It’s a sad indictment of the NHS in my view in terms of it being run chaotically by well meaning people who are chronically overworked

@Averydifferentwoman this is exactly what I originally wrote:
” I also have said very similar to “it’s just a bunch of cells” whilst working in a miscarriage clinic. Again all things I’m ashamed of now, I realise it was poor care”,

How is that not acknowledging that I was wrong?

Ironically, you are hitting the nail on the head with your dismissal of poor conditions for staff. “The narrative of Poor poor us”. The suicide rate for doctors was, and is, appalling, and the rates of depression and addiction. I think it is important to raise awareness of this. Doctors should be allowed to speak up and say why care is so poor. Because the system is broken.

I suppose because like I say you do seem focused on the fact that it’s the system that’s at fault and I’m sure it is but it’s still very much a narrative placing the doctor as the victim.

I’m not trying to give you a hard time but that is how it comes across.

I’m not sure what your points is because it keeps changing. Firstly I’m not remorseful enough and then I’m playing a victim narrative...?

But it should be ok to say Drs have it tough too…. To play devils advocate -why is it not ok for the Dr to be a victim of the system too? Why is that uncomfortable for you? Yes of course it’s vital to question poor patient care, as this thread has done numerous times, but there needs to be enough room for both issues to be discussed.

The system is categorically at fault. No question. It’s broken. I’m shocked that’s a surprise to you, perhaps the politicians have done a good enough job of glorifying the institution, so we blame the individuals.

I decided to give it a miss, even though I have seen the author's cabaret performances at the Edinburgh Fringe. From what others have described I will continue to do so.

@Scrunchies I don’t know that they are two different points, particularly. I don’t doubt there is a hell of a lot wrong with the system but I don’t see that as a catch all excuse - some of your posts over the page made me wince and like I say I’m no saint myself.

The system is shit but I also was responsible for some shitty stuff might be a truer narrative.

Ok. I think you’re missing the wider point here. Many of the reasons leading to poor care are inextricably linked to why staff feel burnt out.

Just read on the threads on here, at least half of the things people complain about relate to lack of care and humanity from staff, the way they speak to patients or don’t explain things. The lack of basic care. Not just clinical mistakes, but the way patients are made to feel.

99% of nhs staff aren’t horrible people. Many are so overburdened they simply don’t have the capacity to care like they should. Some days they might, some days they won’t. If so many staff weren’t so burnt out, they would be able to care better.

I don’t feel I was responsible for shitty stuff. I feel like I went above and beyond, and did my best within the system. If I was in the same job now and faced with the same workload, I don’t think I could have done any better. Nor could anyone else. I did what was humanly possible at the time.

For the record, all of this is said from the lens of receiving “poor” NHS care myself. I had a horrible birth, where mistakes were made, and a poorly baby. And had a horrendous time. Even tho I sustained a bladder injury, as they forgot to empty my bladder, I don’t blame the staff. They were doing their best within the system.

You might be interested to know he’s a Dulwich College old boy, figures given what we’ve heard about the culture there in the past.

I read an interview with him where he mentions a female consultant he describes as ‘high status working class’. How staggeringly snobbish is that? She was a woman who’d worked very, very hard to get to that position and had no qualms whatever about taking him down a peg or ten. I immediately thought of my mum (very unprivileged background) who used to be senior nurse at a well known London hospital before retiring, and she too was very good at putting uppity medics (even consultants) in their place.

I didn't know there was a drama, I binge read the book

@Scrunchies

Ok. I think you’re missing the wider point here. Many of the reasons leading to poor care are inextricably linked to why staff feel burnt out.

Just read on the threads on here, at least half of the things people complain about relate to lack of care and humanity from staff, the way they speak to patients or don’t explain things. The lack of basic care. Not just clinical mistakes, but the way patients are made to feel.

99% of nhs staff aren’t horrible people. Many are so overburdened they simply don’t have the capacity to care like they should. Some days they might, some days they won’t. If so many staff weren’t so burnt out, they would be able to care better.

I don’t feel I was responsible for shitty stuff. I feel like I went above and beyond, and did my best within the system. If I was in the same job now and faced with the same workload, I don’t think I could have done any better. Nor could anyone else. I did what was humanly possible at the time.

For the record, all of this is said from the lens of receiving “poor” NHS care myself. I had a horrible birth, where mistakes were made, and a poorly baby. And had a horrendous time. Even tho I sustained a bladder injury, as they forgot to empty my bladder, I don’t blame the staff. They were doing their best within the system.

I don't feel responsible for the shitty stuff I did, cos I always have the excuse that 'the system made me do it'.

We are one step from I was just following orders in abdication here.

If you are that patient who ends up on the recieving end of the shitty stuff that can lead to years of trauma. And utterly unsympathetic pricks saying 'its just the system, I can't do anything about it'.

Fuck off.

We should be demanding better and screaming the rooftops down about it. Not using it for the justification for a woman hating dark comedy.

I had to hide the last thread because of some of the appalling justifications because it was so upsetting to see.

I’m fully disgusted at the song he wrote called “Your Baby” - absolutely vile.

@RedToothBrush I was the patient on the receiving end of it too. I have permanent life changes injuries. I developed PTSD and PNA/PND. I had one of the worst births and postnatal periods I’d come across actually, required HDU & NICU stays. But I don’t blame the staff. I genuinely think they did their best within the constraints.

I’m not sure if you’ve misinterpreted my comments? For the record I’m not defending the medical actions in the show, that’s completely not what I meant. I’m not defending Adam Kay or Adam Kay’s actions. I was saying personally I don’t feel I myself as an individual did a bad job, no I don’t.

I agree we should be shouting from the rooftops about it and raising awareness. Of course we should be demanding better. But this is my point - it is all linked

To improve care we need to have better working environment, and not have burnt out staff. I’m not sure why that’s so controversial. How do people expect staff to be at their best when they are half dead on their feet? Falling asleep at their desks and at the wheel, of course they aren’t going to be performing well.

I'm a head and neck nurse so wrong end of the body for me but I rest enjoyed it. The books brilliantly funny too.

I don’t think anyone has misinterpreted your comments @Scrunchies, I think everyone is interpreting them correctly but you still feel justified in what you did, because the system. It’s not.

I bought the book when everyone was raving about it years ago. I thought it was deeply offensive and returned it. I probably read about a quarter of it.

The chances of me watching this show are nil.

@Averydifferentwoman

I don’t think anyone has misinterpreted your comments *@Scrunchies*, I think everyone is interpreting them correctly but you still feel justified in what you did, because the system. It’s not.

This. With bells on.

We have had far too few whistleblowers who have been subsequently thown under the bus.

I stand by the notion of 'i was just following orders'.

Ok 🤷‍♀️ I can see this isn’t going to go anywhere, so I will bow out. It’s not as simple as accusing me of “following orders” - my point is when you are burnt out you lose humanity, empathy etc. If staff are on their knees, they won’t be able to give the best care. I stand by that point. I genuinely feel I did the best I could, and I’m at peace with that.

The fact is Scrunchies the people with agency here are the people within the NHS. Not the patients.
Don’t tell us that it’s ok to be poorly treated because the NHS isn’t run properly. It’s obvious to everyone in this country that it’s not run properly, but as tax payers all we can do is pay the NHS. And we pay it a LOT.

If people within the NHS know the system isn’t working and that patients are suffering then shouldn’t you do something about it? Doesn’t ‘do no harm’ involve taking it up with superiors, engaging colleagues in effecting change? It’s not your job to do that I know but it’s sure as hell not possible for patients to do this. We’re the ones powerless in this equation.
Wouldn’t it be better to tell us ‘I know what this programme portrays is shit but we do what we can to make our departments run more effectively by X, Y, Z’ than to just shrug and say ‘what the programme portrays is shit and I did the same because that’s just the way it is in the NHS.’ ?

I don’t know, maybe I’m being unfair. But it’s completely frustrating to KNOW that there is too much wastage, too much middle management, too much expenditure in the wrong areas and not enough on things that enable Doctors and nurses and healthcare professionals to do their jobs without treating their patients like shit (not least women who use maternity services).

If treating women and patients like this is the norm due to the way the NHS is run then Houston, we have a problem. Because it’s not acceptable.

If treating women and patients like this is the norm due to the way the NHS is run then Houston, we have a problem. Because it’s not acceptable.

Its called institutionalised sexist and institutionalised abuse.

The MET police are currently facing rather a lot of criticism about this.

Imagine if the BBC commissioned a comedy which laughed about the institutionalised sexism of the police, because thats just the way it was and nothing could be done about it and staff just had to put up with it.

Give this series the lead balloon it deserves rather than telling women - who have had these experiences first hand - that they should just put up and shut up because nothing can be done.