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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have concerns about men working with non verbal female patients in care homes ? ( Content warning, sexual abuse).

63 replies

strawberrymilkshake123 · 10/02/2022 13:04

My mum recently sent me a link to a horrific story about a male care worker who has been jailed for raping a 99 year old dementia patient in the care home he worked at, ( my mum is hyper alert/ worried about any chances of abuse in care homes atm as my Grandma has recently been moved into one).
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-60299916

However, googling has shown this isn't a one off.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-51550011

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-58188294

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/care-home-worker-who-sexually-23290876

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57771411

AIBU to say that whilst 99% of men working in care would not behave like this, to protect the dignity and safeguarding of vulnerable/ non-verbal residents, there should be same sex care provided for vulnerable residents ?

OP posts:
Masterchief507 · 10/02/2022 13:06

Ahem, cough, DBS checks, ahem, cough

There are already meant to be measures in place to stop shit like this happening.

ancientgran · 10/02/2022 13:06

I think it might be hard to provide enough male carers for the male patients. In my experience more of the carers are female but I suppose it might be balanced out if most of the residents are female.

sadpapercourtesan · 10/02/2022 13:07

I agree that women would be safer and more comfortable with same-sex care. However a) good luck providing same-sex care for men, given the low-status nature of the work, and b) everything seems to be heading in completely the opposite direction at the moment, so it's unlikely to change Sad

Original poster
strawberrymilkshake123 · 10/02/2022 13:10

@Masterchief507

Ahem, cough, DBS checks, ahem, cough

There are already meant to be measures in place to stop shit like this happening.

Well clearly the five separate male carers listed above would have had clear DBS checks, and it didn't stop serious sexual abuse happening on these five separate occasions.

I'd say it's also for the privacy and dignity of the women involved, as many elderly women would not want unrelated men washing/ dressing them, ( even if there is nothing sinister going on).

OP posts:
titchy · 10/02/2022 13:12

@sadpapercourtesan

I agree that women would be safer and more comfortable with same-sex care. However a) good luck providing same-sex care for men, given the low-status nature of the work, and b) everything seems to be heading in completely the opposite direction at the moment, so it's unlikely to change Sad
Whilst I understand the desirability of same sex caters for men for reasons of dignity, at least female carers aren't going to rape the men in their care.
x2boys · 10/02/2022 13:12

Yes when I was a nurse working in dementia care the vast majority of staff were female ,both nurses and health care assistant,s
I have a non verbal nearly 12 year old son who is extremely vulnerable you just have to trust that those caring for him are genuine.

Original poster
strawberrymilkshake123 · 10/02/2022 13:13

Tbh, with an elderly relative in care, I find the recent news so worrying and depressing.

OP posts:
Clymene · 10/02/2022 13:16

If women who are mentally competent can ask for - and get - same sex health care, then those who can't should be doubly protected.

All a DBS proves is that the rapist has got away with it before, not that he isn't a rapist.

There are no lengths thar predators won't go to find victims.

x2boys · 10/02/2022 13:17

There are a lot of people who really shouldn't be working in a caring environment IME ,I'm not necessarily talking about rape and sexual abuse ,but I have come across some really unpleasant staff,who I wouldn't want caring for my relative .

Theunamedcat · 10/02/2022 13:17

DBS checks only work if you have been convicted there is always a first offence

Ponoka7 · 10/02/2022 13:17

At one tim it was supposed to be 2-1 care. There is a shortage of male carers, so the problem didn't arise because they would have enough to do within the care home that they wasn't left with non verbal women.
We have a shortage of staff and one the concerns of other staff members aren't listened to. We had one male carer who liked to leave women naked on the bed, as though they were waiting for him. There was a load of other issues but all they did was put him on days, because he would be able to be watched.
The answer is council controlled care, with decent allocated budgets. Greater inspection and whistle blowing procedures, to an outside agency, for private homes.

Ponoka7 · 10/02/2022 13:19

Also, but this isn't going to be popular, if you come from certain countries, a DBS doesn't mean anything because rape is legal in their countries. It might not be legal as such, but it's ignored.

Original poster
strawberrymilkshake123 · 10/02/2022 13:19

@Clymene

If women who are mentally competent can ask for - and get - same sex health care, then those who can't should be doubly protected.

All a DBS proves is that the rapist has got away with it before, not that he isn't a rapist.

There are no lengths thar predators won't go to find victims.

Yes, a very good point.

It seems to be discriminating against people who do not have mental capacity to advocate for themselves; if I was in care but had mental capacity I could request same sex healthcare.

If I can't, I'm just assumed to consent to men washing/ dressing/ toileting me, one-on-one, in private. Despite the fact this puts me at risk of abuse.

OP posts:
Ponoka7 · 10/02/2022 13:20

"If women who are mentally competent can ask for - and get - same sex health care".
The man who I mentioned used to wait until he knew we'd have those women undressed and come in.

entropynow · 10/02/2022 13:21

@Ponoka7

At one tim it was supposed to be 2-1 care. There is a shortage of male carers, so the problem didn't arise because they would have enough to do within the care home that they wasn't left with non verbal women. We have a shortage of staff and one the concerns of other staff members aren't listened to. We had one male carer who liked to leave women naked on the bed, as though they were waiting for him. There was a load of other issues but all they did was put him on days, because he would be able to be watched. The answer is council controlled care, with decent allocated budgets. Greater inspection and whistle blowing procedures, to an outside agency, for private homes.
If you think there is no abuse in council-controlled care, or that it's all about how much carers are paid, have I got news for you...
ancientgran · 10/02/2022 13:21

If you think it is important for elderly women's privacy and dignity the same has to apply to men.

Cases of abuse where it isn't necessarily sexual and women are the abusers
www.cps.gov.uk/mersey-cheshire/news/carer-sentenced-threatening-and-taunting-dementia-sufferer
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/depraved-carer-who-filmed-herself-6247866
metro.co.uk/2021/01/24/carer-jailed-after-cctv-caught-her-abusing-pensioner-with-dementia-13958133/
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/callous-care-workers-mocked-threw-17335571

Horrific isn't it but I think we have to be careful if we just assume female = safe.

Ponoka7 · 10/02/2022 13:22

"If I can't, I'm just assumed to consent to men washing/ dressing/ toileting me, one-on-one, in private. Despite the fact this puts me at risk of abuse."

You won't get a concenus that women are at risk from men. Even on here posters tie themselves up in knots giving scenarios that show they fear nothing about men.

HoodieHoodie · 10/02/2022 13:22

YANBU
Iirc there was a high profile case of a woman in a vegetative state who was repeatedly raped and ended up having a baby.

The depravity and entitlement to sex of some men is horrendous, and all women should by default be cared for by women unless they are able to consent otherwise.

entropynow · 10/02/2022 13:23

@Ponoka7

Also, but this isn't going to be popular, if you come from certain countries, a DBS doesn't mean anything because rape is legal in their countries. It might not be legal as such, but it's ignored.
Unpopular? You mean racist as fuck. Men get away with rape in the UK on an epic scale, and you want to point the finger at brown people? Sure.
endofmytether4 · 10/02/2022 13:24

In my place of work there are vulnerable adults and a serious lack of male carers. Some of the service users can be aggressive/inappropriate with female carers so men are requested and are not always available.

ancientgran · 10/02/2022 13:24

Whilst I understand the desirability of same sex caters for men for reasons of dignity, at least female carers aren't going to rape the men in their care.

If you look at my links above one is a young woman who effectively raping elderly women with a vibrator. I know the charge won't be rape but essentially it is what she did.

AllOfUsAreDead · 10/02/2022 13:24

It's not a one off on female care workers and nurses abusing patients too. Want to ban them as well?

Ponoka7 · 10/02/2022 13:24

@entropynow, I know there was. But we need to up the status of the jobs, so a better level of staff can be recruited. A good wage/holiday/pension/sick leave structure would help. My DD is within catering in hospitals, if an NHS contract is on the cards, people work better.

ancientgran · 10/02/2022 13:26

@Ponoka7

"If I can't, I'm just assumed to consent to men washing/ dressing/ toileting me, one-on-one, in private. Despite the fact this puts me at risk of abuse."

You won't get a concenus that women are at risk from men. Even on here posters tie themselves up in knots giving scenarios that show they fear nothing about men.

I don't think women (and men) aren't sometimes at risk from men but equally they are sometimes at risk from women. I think the danger is people making an assumption that it is only men who are a risk.
CorrBlimeyGG · 10/02/2022 13:26

if I was in care but had mental capacity I could request same sex healthcare.

If you're in acute care and the wards are as overwhelmed as they are now, then you'll find you get little choice.

That's the issue in social care too, staffing levels are not nearly high enough to allow for true patient choice. How do you suggest this would work in practice?