To have concerns about men working with non verbal female patients in care homes ? ( Content warning, sexual abuse).

[strawberrymilkshake123]

My mum recently sent me a link to a horrific story about a male care worker who has been jailed for raping a 99 year old dementia patient in the care home he worked at, ( my mum is hyper alert/ worried about any chances of abuse in care homes atm as my Grandma has recently been moved into one).
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-60299916

However, googling has shown this isn't a one off.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-51550011

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-58188294

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/care-home-worker-who-sexually-23290876

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57771411

AIBU to say that whilst 99% of men working in care would not behave like this, to protect the dignity and safeguarding of vulnerable/ non-verbal residents, there should be same sex care provided for vulnerable residents ?

Also look at the prison sentences, or rather lack of them. Other than child sexual abuse, it's one of the lowest crimes, yet they walk free from court.

[quote Ponoka7]@entropynow, I know there was. But we need to up the status of the jobs, so a better level of staff can be recruited. A good wage/holiday/pension/sick leave structure would help. My DD is within catering in hospitals, if an NHS contract is on the cards, people work better.[/quote]
Staffing levels as well, although you sometimes get two evil people working together I think it is generally safer if you have a chaperone.

[quote Ponoka7]@entropynow, I know there was. But we need to up the status of the jobs, so a better level of staff can be recruited. A good wage/holiday/pension/sick leave structure would help. My DD is within catering in hospitals, if an NHS contract is on the cards, people work better.[/quote]
This. You need better pay to attract a better type of person. Currently it's the desperate that take it, not the ones who want to help those in need.

Until that actually happens, nothing will change sadly. And the headlines you see are really just the beginnings of what goes on in these places unfortunately.

@Ponoka7 in which countries is rape legal?

If you're talking about countries in which rape is tolerated, a blind eye turned and convictions vanishingly rare...you're in one.

Ok even if your point stands, surely they could be attended by 2 carers one of whom is a woman? Most non verbal service users are going to be doubles anyway.

I think you’re being ignorant of the fact that placing so little trust in the men who do the job will likely make them leave, and we already have too few carers

I would agree with this. If I couldn't express myself I would not want a biological man in charge of my personal care.

This. You need better pay to attract a better type of person. Currently it's the desperate that take it, not the ones who want to help those in need.

I do agree we should up the pay and status but I don't agree that it is only desperate people who take the job. I have an elderly relative with severe dementia and she has some excellent carers. I will be eternally grateful to two in particular who go way beyond what is expected to make her as comfortable as she can be. They will quote what she likes in food and drink as they remember from when she first went into care and was able to express her views and they make sure she gets offered these things. Another example is me visiting her and she was so distressed the visit was going badly, carer came in with some hand lotion, she sat by the bed and massaged my relatives hands and arms as she talked quietly to her. When she was calm the carer left us to get on with the visit.

We need more like them.

These kind of threads dismay me because they are so very biased towards the opinion that careworkers are all abusive. @Ponoka7, your post above borders on racist.

I have a very good friend, male actually, who works in a care home. Both he, and the female staff, are often abused physically by the residents. Those from other countries are often racially abused too. And all for minimum wage. 99.9% of careworkers are lovely people, all doing their best to care for the relatives of other people who don't want to do it. There are nasty, abusive people in every place of work, but care work is possibly the job where the workers get the most abuse. Think elderly and strong men grabbing female care workers' boobs, elderly ladies stripping off and shaking their boobs at male care workers, residents calling care workers 'bitches' and 'bastards', shouting 'go back to your own country' to them as they're trying to help them get dressed, scratching their faces, spitting at them. All of that.

It's a difficult job, and emotionally draining - imagine spending all night holding the hand of someone who is about to die and afraid - and the job is paid far too little.

I was browsing Twitter and spotted a case like this - young woman, nonverbal, had been raped. The mum had realised that only male staff (or only one male?) had been on overnight - this seems an easy thing to put right - there should always be a female carer in any setting with female clients.

This is a massive problem but I'm cautious about linking it to pay as if 'better' people - which is a phrase used more than once on this thread - are not abusers.

Yes, carers deserve better pay. That's not because 'better' people are rich.
If you want to use pay to attract better qualified people into the sector then say so, but that doesn't mean that the same % of better qualified people won't also be abusers. Abuse cuts across all pay scales.

[quote sadpapercourtesan]@Ponoka7 in which countries is rape legal?

If you're talking about countries in which rape is tolerated, a blind eye turned and convictions vanishingly rare...you're in one.[/quote]
I'm wondering if they meant countries where the definition of rape is different to ours.

Having sex with a 13 year old here would be a form of rape. In Japan it's the age of consent.

In Bahrain rape is illegal but if the man agrees to marry his victim afterwards it is no longer consider rape.

In India a husband cannot rape his wife unless she's under 13. Over that age, forced sex isn't rape.

A person could have committed something that would be an offence in this country whilst living in one of the above example countries. If they had, it wouldn't be a crime, so wouldn't show up on any records.

On the OP's point I don't think it's right to say men can only care for men and women for women. Women commit sexual offences too, unfortunately. What's needed is a thorough investigation into applicants to highlight those who may go on to commit offences, even if they don't have a criminal record yet.

It would be difficult but firstly I would raise pay for care workers in the hope of attracting a better quality of applicant. Second, I'd make it a criminal offence for a care worker not to report suspicions or concerns regarding the treatment of anyone in their care home. Third, I'd make the owners of the organisation criminally liable for offences that their staff carry out.

Yes I agree with you @MaChienEstUnDick. There are nasty people across all pay scales, absolutely. But higher pay does attract more respect, which in turn attracts better conditions. I'm talking about the workers here, of course. People earning more are likely to consider themselves more important and therefore less likely to put up with the abuse that they get from the residents and even the care home owners who treat their staff like commodities too.

I do agree that there should always be two staff to attend to all residents, to protect both the resident and the staff. Residents often make accusations and if you've attended them alone, it is very difficult to disprove without video evidence, which of course, as a worker, you're not allowed to set up. Sometimes a resident has a history of making allegations and still the staff are not allowed to ask for cctv in the room because it invades the resident's privacy. And the managers/care home owners won't cut their profit margins in order to pay for two staff to be in attendance at all times.

@strawberrymilkshake123
Oh You are not at all unreasonable.
A place i worked in for Cerebral Palsy had a very “ Handsome” young male resident.
There was a worker who used to take the boy into his room.
The boy could not communicate AT ALL.

We voiced concerns to manager several times and were blown off.

He wouldn’t listen.
He said theolder male worker was “ Very reliable” and said we should stop making unfounded allegations.

Why would a seedy 40 yr old male be taking an attractive, utterly non verbal young man into his room for hours..

Makes me feel so bad even now.

Edit: Even older male workers thought it was not right.

The resident had no way of calling for help.
Goodness knows what he endured.

@ancientgran

This. You need better pay to attract a better type of person. Currently it's the desperate that take it, not the ones who want to help those in need.

I do agree we should up the pay and status but I don't agree that it is only desperate people who take the job. I have an elderly relative with severe dementia and she has some excellent carers. I will be eternally grateful to two in particular who go way beyond what is expected to make her as comfortable as she can be. They will quote what she likes in food and drink as they remember from when she first went into care and was able to express her views and they make sure she gets offered these things. Another example is me visiting her and she was so distressed the visit was going badly, carer came in with some hand lotion, she sat by the bed and massaged my relatives hands and arms as she talked quietly to her. When she was calm the carer left us to get on with the visit.

We need more like them.

I get what you mean, but I know of a lot of carers who have left the industry because the pay doesn't allow them to live, not because they don't like the job. If they'd had better pay, they would have stayed, but the lack of pay forced them to leave. That happens far too often, and maybe the ones you know either have no better job options in the area or don't need to rely on having better pay.

Caring/ Care assistant is a much undervalued and underpaid career path. It does have possibilities to progress, to senior carer, and even into nursing.

As this is mumsnet and not mansnet it is not up to us to push for more males to consider a career in care as a profession, but hey lurking journos.....

But saying that it might “even into nursing” is saying that nursing is “better” than care. Care workers shouldn’t be seen as being people who weren’t clever /able enough to be nurses.

Havent time to read the whole thread yet but already this reminds me about the recent thread about male midwives.

Just wanted to say in that one it was refreshing to see so many agreeing that the common denominator in discussions around violence is that it's usually men. And we ARE allowed to say that.

CCTV is mandatory in all English slaughterhouses. Vets, of course are always on the premises but they cannot be everywhere at once. It was clear to animal rights activists that ill-treatment was inevitably widespread.

CCTV is not mandatory in English hospitals, care homes or anywhere else, except for police stations.

It produced a rapid drop in the number of people who "fell down the steps on the way to the cell". But it proved useful to police officers, too, because it showed them innocent of many false accusations. It also provided evidence for any later legal procedures.

Police were hostile at first, but quickly became enthusiasts, and also adopted shoulder-worn cameras for their own protection.

Use independently monitored, (randomly requested) footage of CCTV (from overt plus from randomly moved hidden cameras) and body-cams in all settings where abuse is possible.

The supposed 'protection of privacy' arises from a false notion that what is on CCTV is somehow available for national television. It is not. The CCTV from slaughter houses is not. Nor is police cell or shoulder-camera footage.

Vulnerable people need protection from abuse, by staff or by their peers. CCTV footage, available only to authorised monitors, but possibly sometimes including a glimpse of them receiving personal care, is not a threat to them. Lack of CCTV is.

Yanbu.
There are so many instances of this and you can guarantee that what is discovered is only the tip of the iceberg.

I think male care staff should not be allowed to go into a female patient's room without a female colleague present.

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/its-massive-scandal-just-waiting-break

I DESPISE the notion that just because a carer is male they are more likely to be of dubious charactor.

Ive met so many female nurses and care assistants who shouldnt be in the job at all. Not rape, but neglectful and abusive.

No amount of same sex care will protect people from that, so its not the answer.

@Letsallscreamatthesistene

I DESPISE the notion that just because a carer is male they are more likely to be of dubious charactor.

Ive met so many female nurses and care assistants who shouldnt be in the job at all. Not rape, but neglectful and abusive.

No amount of same sex care will protect people from that, so its not the answer.

Statistically women are at far, far greater risk of harm from men than they are from other women. There's no getting away from that.

There's also the matter of privacy and dignity. You may not mind intimate care being done by an opposite sex person, but many women do, and there is no reason to assume that the most vulnerable, who cannot stand up for themselves, would want or deserve any less.

My current job is going to into care homes of all kinds to check that individuals who lack capacity are having their views about their care listened to or that when they cannot give their views that staff are diligent in ensuring that they are acting in their best interests.

Sadly i was in a home the other day with 8 residents and they have 23 current vacancies.

Another care home decided to close two weeks before Xmas because they could not recruit enough staff to run their business any longer.

Another lost 50% of staff due to Brexit and compulsory vaccinations.

I think it would be absolutely impossible to provide many of the solutions people seem to be suggesting. I have not been into a care home in the last 6 months that has not be struggling to keep their staffing levels up to the minimum required never mind being able to provide lots of choice of who cares for who.

This is a massive crisis and i do personally feel places are taking simply anyone on because they have little to no choice.

@butnobodytoldme

CCTV is mandatory in all English slaughterhouses. Vets, of course are always on the premises but they cannot be everywhere at once. It was clear to animal rights activists that ill-treatment was inevitably widespread.

CCTV is not mandatory in English hospitals, care homes or anywhere else, except for police stations.

It produced a rapid drop in the number of people who "fell down the steps on the way to the cell". But it proved useful to police officers, too, because it showed them innocent of many false accusations. It also provided evidence for any later legal procedures.

Police were hostile at first, but quickly became enthusiasts, and also adopted shoulder-worn cameras for their own protection.

Use independently monitored, (randomly requested) footage of CCTV (from overt plus from randomly moved hidden cameras) and body-cams in all settings where abuse is possible.

The supposed 'protection of privacy' arises from a false notion that what is on CCTV is somehow available for national television. It is not. The CCTV from slaughter houses is not. Nor is police cell or shoulder-camera footage.

Vulnerable people need protection from abuse, by staff or by their peers. CCTV footage, available only to authorised monitors, but possibly sometimes including a glimpse of them receiving personal care, is not a threat to them. Lack of CCTV is.

Do you mean people in care should be on CCTV 24/7 or just when a carer is with them?

I find the idea of 24/7 very invasive.