To think that if a pay-by-the-mile Road tax is introduced, we won’t want to buy electric cars?

[ThoseFestiveLights]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/04/uk-road-pricing-transport-committee-mps-electric-shift

The government is going to lose millions in fuel duty with the roll out of electric cars, so is proposing recouping this through more complex road taxing.

I suppose I hadn’t thought of this angle, but it makes sense for the government to do something. However, I was tempted to buy an electric car because of the fuel savings. This has put me off.

AIBU to think that if the burden of paying for roads falls across all motorists, then people will just stick to cheaper, petrol cars for now and not invest in electric ones?

@MedusasBadHairDay

Surely it's going to screw over anyone who makes their living from either driving or travelling between multiple work locations/clients?

People who make their living this way already have to price petrol/diesel into their charges/salary. If this is priced to be revenue neutral then they'll end up paying out roughly the same.

You’ve made the mistake of thinking that VED pays for roads. VED + FED combined raised around £60bn in 2019. Road maintenance was around £10bn.

Ah, some figures. So it's actually just 16% of money raised by motorists that is used for road maintenance. The rest the government puts into the 'general taxation' pot and spends as they see fit on all services.

Just tax electric vehicles. People have them for the fuel saving, but they utilise the road network just the same, creating the same wear and tear, upkeep, improvements etc.

Any charging through mileage etc has too many loopholes, unfairness and as pp observes, it’s a tax on the law abiding and a free pass for many unscrupulous drivers.

The poorest people can't even afford cars, they are priced out of the system already. Car ownership is already regressive, and to be honest it should be. In most cases private vehicle use is a convenience rather than a necessity. Though society never sees it that way....

"Ah, some figures. So it's actually just 16% of money raised by motorists that is used for road maintenance."

Probably less than 16%, but the indirect costs of car use are far higher.

Many wealthy people will travel next to nowhere (work at home/good pension etc) but they'll still want safe well maintained roads for their infrequent trips/buses/refuse collection/caravan/campervan/friends and family.

Many poor people on minimum wage have no choice but to have high mileage getting to work or long school run.

I think we should all pay to maintain roads through general taxation - like we all pay for schools, hospitals or street lights. Safe roads are needed by all.

People are going to have to accept that they have to choose.

If you want to protect the environment/slow down climate change then you are going to have to make changes, and that means all of us. But those changes are going to cost more money.

So in essence, we all have to pay to save the planet, be that by having an electric car or not flying abroad at the drop of a hat or reducing energy consumption in other ways.

reversing climate change isn’t just the government’s responsibility, it’s all of ours.

Thing is that people think they can chop and choose when actually they can’t/.

If you drive a car then you’re going to be responsible for the cost of it. If you live in an area such as London then there is no need to own a car and you should use public transport if you don’t want to be paying the earth in road tax.

Airline prices are going to increase because of emissions, so you either pay or you don’t go abroad every 5 minutes, it’s only really in the last 30 years or so that people seem to think that they are entitled to a foreign holiday several times a year.

There are so many other things, but we are all responsible for the changes which have to be made.

It'll be done via black boxes, as it needs to be much more expensive to drive in some places/at some times, than in/at others. We evidently need a use-based emissions tax (which is effectively what fuel duty ought to become - a charge to allow you to pollute), PLUS a per-mile variable charge, which should reflect the full cost of car usage, and allow for generous subsidies for public transport and active travel.

It's definitely going to come. The only question is when.

People who make their living this way already have to price petrol/diesel into their charges/salary. If this is priced to be revenue neutral then they'll end up paying out roughly the same.

So hopefully that's what they do then.

This is the least Conservative, Conservative government I have ever seen!

Quick correction to my figures it’s around £45bn collected by VED + FED. I mixed up dollars and pounds 😱😱

@coachmylife

It'll be done via black boxes, as it needs to be much more expensive to drive in some places/at some times, than in/at others. We evidently need a use-based emissions tax (which is effectively what fuel duty ought to become - a charge to allow you to pollute), PLUS a per-mile variable charge, which should reflect the full cost of car usage, and allow for generous subsidies for public transport and active travel.

It's definitely going to come. The only question is when.

Ok, that's 31 million Black Boxes to fit and maintain.

How are you going to enforce it to ensure people have one fitted?

Just the cost and logistics of fitting them all is going to be "interesting"

In most cases private vehicle use is a convenience rather than a necessity. Though society never sees it that way....
Private car ownership's pretty low in North Korea.

I don't get this really charge per mile thing. Surely all you need to do is raise the tax on petrol/diesel to cover the loss of revenue from road tax, the more you drive the more fuel you use the more tax on fuel you pay.

For electric charges since these are so wired up to the internet all you need is a tax per kW which is reported by the cat itself. You use more kW to do more miles you pay more tax. Simple.

"Private car ownership's pretty low in North Korea. "

I'm not aware of accurate figures on this TBH. I think you're probably correct though.

I already pay per mile with fuel tax. For more miles I drive, the more fuel I use, the more tax I pay

There should be a separate system for electric vehicles

@NoSquirrels

I’m not sure why any motorist thinks that the ‘burden of paying for roads’ shouldn’t fall to them.

You use the roads. You pay for the infrastructure and upkeep. Your car is not causing less wear and tear because it’s electric.

Great! If all it takes to start paying vehicle emissions tax is to use the road regardless of how much pollution you produce, we can start charging horse riders and cyclists too.

They tentatively looked at black boxes for all about 15 years ago.
The uproar from every side was huge
Who looks after the data
Is it secure
Can police use it
Is it accurate - how to complain if it’s not
Can insurance companies use it

No one wanted that except the government

@EvilPea

They tentatively looked at black boxes for all about 15 years ago. The uproar from every side was huge Who looks after the data Is it secure Can police use it Is it accurate - how to complain if it’s not Can insurance companies use it

No one wanted that except the government

and yet according to loads of posters here it's a piece of piss and we can implement it for 10 pence tomorrow.

It's no wonder so many daft ideas gain traction.

@EvilPea

They tentatively looked at black boxes for all about 15 years ago. The uproar from every side was huge Who looks after the data Is it secure Can police use it Is it accurate - how to complain if it’s not Can insurance companies use it

No one wanted that except the government

It definitely has the potential to be very invasive on peoples lives .

I'm a se cleaner.
I travel around for work.
I live rurally.
I'm a one wage household and on a low wage.
There are no buses in my area.
I'm a luxury to most and cannot increase my prices any further.
If this proposal came in I could not work.
This should not be done as a one size fits all.

@DrWhoNowww

It wouldn’t be entirely straightforward when it comes to infrastructure.

How do you track miles travelled? If you use an app then what happens when you have no phone signal, or you don’t have a smart phone? Or you run out of battery or simply decided not to turn the thing on? How do we capture that and ensure people are still charged?

If you use a black box like insurance companies - who pays for that? Who fits it? What happens when it goes wrong? Who pays for repairs?

It’s far simpler to keep a flat rate based on emissions and just raise it for everyone regardless of miles driven.

They could just check the mileage (as they already do!) at the annual MOT and charge the tax accordingly?

They could do it from your MOT I guess. But obviously you'd have a huge market for falsifying. But the level of CCTV required to catch every single mile you drive is insane. You'd have an option to avoid the cameras on satnavs like you do for toll roads

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

Charging per mile would require colossal infrastructure - in implementing and to maintain it. It's yet another way to penalise those of us who prefer not to live in already overcrowded places. We don't have the money to buy an electric car anyway - we in banger territory.

It wouldn't require infrastructure. The government already knows what your annual mileage is, it gets recorded on the DVLA computer every time you get your MoT done.

They also need to make electric cars actually practical before they start all this shit. Lots of people don't have access to charging points or a place to install one. They don't go far enough. Take too long to charge and the batteries are actually quite wasteful materials wise.
Government is pushing it before its actually feasible because they don't understand the technology involved.