To think that if a pay-by-the-mile Road tax is introduced, we won’t want to buy electric cars?

[ThoseFestiveLights]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/04/uk-road-pricing-transport-committee-mps-electric-shift

The government is going to lose millions in fuel duty with the roll out of electric cars, so is proposing recouping this through more complex road taxing.

I suppose I hadn’t thought of this angle, but it makes sense for the government to do something. However, I was tempted to buy an electric car because of the fuel savings. This has put me off.

AIBU to think that if the burden of paying for roads falls across all motorists, then people will just stick to cheaper, petrol cars for now and not invest in electric ones?

@DGRossetti

How do you track miles travelled?

You'd be amazed how many ANPR cameras there are around ...

True, but they are currently used to record the presence of vehicles at given points - it's not a fixed distance between most as people can take different routes, and we'd still need to add a lot of infrastructure to record all the miles travelled.

It's not impossible but it'd be expensive.

About 10-20% of cars around here have illegal number plates too, so there would have to be much better enforcement of that.

@Babdoc

I am still wondering how they are going to generate the massive extra electricity required to charge millions of electric cars - given that we are already struggling with decommissioned (old) or unaffordable (new) nuclear plants, unreliable wind energy, and doubtful gas/oil supplies for power stations. The problem of taxing such vehicles pales into insignificance.

Who are we to ask such questions against the words of Boris ?

@Babdoc

I am still wondering how they are going to generate the massive extra electricity required to charge millions of electric cars - given that we are already struggling with decommissioned (old) or unaffordable (new) nuclear plants, unreliable wind energy, and doubtful gas/oil supplies for power stations. The problem of taxing such vehicles pales into insignificance.

Tens of millions of cars with batteries and unreliable wind/solar are potentially, to some extent, problems which solve each other.

Charging by MOT change in mileage seems simple but I think it's unfair not to take congestion and the effects of rural vs urban living into account as well. I guess a flat mileage charge plus congestion charges in all major cities may be the answer.

Charging by MOT change in mileage seems simple but I think it's unfair not to take congestion and the effects of rural vs urban living into account as well.

The effects of rural v urban living aren't taken into account with the current system though.

I expect one solution would be the equivalent of the 'black box' insurance tracking and pricing that younger drivers in particular use. Would expect resistance about data capture on journey tracking especially if it is mandatory rather than a voluntary choice for younger drivers to make savings. Suppose the government could offer a flat fee equivalent to road duty set at an eye watering level to apply to all cars, including electric ones to help people think journey tracking was their choice. Road duty in the UK pays for more than road maintenance so the revenue will need to be replaced to the Exchequer. As PPs have said, the upgrades to the electricity local loop if car charging becomes the norm will be expensive even if most houses have solar PV and batteries to charge for free given the seasonality. Changes to using more electricity for ground/air source heating if gas central heating new installations are banned will presumably increase domestic consumption too.

They recently snuck in legislation that if you install or have installed a car charger at home it needs to be on a separate meter (or will have to be soon). This is ostensibly so they can limit when you can use it so the grid isn't over stretched but it doesn't take too much of a leap to separate tariffs that can be taxed for charging a car.

Charging by MOT change in mileage seems simple

Except (see my post upthread), it's really easy to game, and it doesn't give an answer for cars up to three years old (I think it's 4 in NI).

Also surveys suggest as many as 4 million vehicles are on the road with no MOT each year.

As with the illegal number plates, we'll need a lot more traffic Police to tighten up on people MOTs.

@NoSquirrels

I’m not sure why any motorist thinks that the ‘burden of paying for roads’ shouldn’t fall to them.

You use the roads. You pay for the infrastructure and upkeep. Your car is not causing less wear and tear because it’s electric.

I don't think anyone is saying we shouldn't pay for roads - and it's probably fair for there to be some relation to use (as there is now - use more petrol/diesel = pay more tax in the form of fuel duty and VAT). We are just questioning the practicalities.

@NoSquirrels

I’m not sure why any motorist thinks that the ‘burden of paying for roads’ shouldn’t fall to them.

You use the roads. You pay for the infrastructure and upkeep. Your car is not causing less wear and tear because it’s electric.

Also the roads are a common good - even those who aren't "a motorist" need roads for buses, Ambulances, Fire Engines, Waste collections, food deliveries etc etc

To be honest I would welcome pay per mile for all cars - it makes the cost of owning a car more transparent.

If we accept that vehicle excise duty aka 'road tax' is a contribution to the Government for the cost of maintaining infrastructure why should someone who does 3000 miles a year pay the same road tax as someone driving 15000 miles?

And why should someone who has an electric car pay less than someone with a petrol car - the effect on the roads and the congestion brought about is the same however they are powered. Yes less pollution comes from electric car and so the cost to the Government on this account is less The Government is trying to kick start the electirc car industry by reducing road tax but we will all have to pay to replace the lost revenue at some point

why should someone who does 3000 miles a year pay the same road tax as someone driving 15000 miles?
For Petrol/Diesel cars the high mileage driver will pay thousands extra in fuel duty and VAT.

anyone who thinks the Conservatives give a flying fig about the environment clearly hasn’t been paying attention. This is how “Friends of the Earth” rated the pontifical parties respective 2019 manifestos, out of a possible top rating of 45 points:
Labour: 33
Green: 31
Liberal Democrat: 30
Conservatives: 5.5

To be honest I would welcome pay per mile for all cars - it makes the cost of owning a car more transparent.
It would be eye-wateringly expensive to implement for all cars.

I don't drive 15,000 a year because I enjoy it. I drive 15,000 miles a year because I have to. Rural poverty and isolation is already a huge issue, and this will only plunge more people into it. The countryside will become the preserve of the rich.

This paragraph seems fairly crucial:

Recognising the political difficulty, in its report published on Friday, the committee said new charges should entirely replace fuel duty and vehicle excise duty and be “revenue neutral”, with most motorists paying the same or less than they do now.

So... motorists won't be paying more, they'll be paying for something different .

However. I can see that any coat saving incentive to buy electric is then lost. It's a real shame that environmentally friendly options are so under incentivised.

*cost saving!

@NoSquirrels

I’m not sure why any motorist thinks that the ‘burden of paying for roads’ shouldn’t fall to them.

You use the roads. You pay for the infrastructure and upkeep. Your car is not causing less wear and tear because it’s electric.

The vast majority (80% or so) of taxation on motorists isn't spent on maintaining roads, it goes into the pot used for the NHS and everything else.

I'm not surprised that electric cars will be taxed in the same way ICE cars are, it was always inevitable and I'm surprised people assumed "greener" cars would always be exempt. How taxes are raised and what they're levied on changing, but the overall burden on the individual must always go up.

but how are they going to monitor how many miles I do in my diesel old banger?

My car insurance already does this, I get a bill each month charging me 3p per mile travelled. The technology for mile-tracking is a little black box that plugs into the car diagnostic port under the dashboard, but one could just use a smartphone app to do the same job. Either way, you need to ensure whatever device is being used, I imagine ANPR cameras could be used as an enforcement mechanism, to detect any non-logged journeys.

I don't think technology is an obstacle at all.

I am excited by the idea that congestion charging (in addition to road tax) will be implemented by this mechanism, making the roads more reliable and useable (albeit more expensive) in future.

@RandomLondoner

but how are they going to monitor how many miles I do in my diesel old banger?

My car insurance already does this, I get a bill each month charging me 3p per mile travelled. The technology for mile-tracking is a little black box that plugs into the car diagnostic port under the dashboard, but one could just use a smartphone app to do the same job. Either way, you need to ensure whatever device is being used, I imagine ANPR cameras could be used as an enforcement mechanism, to detect any non-logged journeys.

I don't think technology is an obstacle at all.

I am excited by the idea that congestion charging (in addition to road tax) will be implemented by this mechanism, making the roads more reliable and useable (albeit more expensive) in future.

I don't think technology is an obstacle at all.

There is zero doubt it's technologically possible - and in a number of different ways.

My points are on how easy it would be to game/dodge and the sheer scale of the implementation and the data capture and management.

People are waiting for months for a driving licence at the moment and no-on is answering phones the DVLA - can you imagine the chaos of this being run by the government? What if you have a problem/query? There would need to be a vast costly infrastructure to support it.

I am excited by the idea that congestion charging (in addition to road tax) will be implemented by this mechanism, making the roads more reliable and useable (albeit more expensive) in future.

Translation " I am glad all the poorer people will be priced off the roads so people like me who can afford it will be able to get places we want to"

@daimbarsatemydogsbone

I am excited by the idea that congestion charging (in addition to road tax) will be implemented by this mechanism, making the roads more reliable and useable (albeit more expensive) in future.

Translation " I am glad all the poorer people will be priced off the roads so people like me who can afford it will be able to get places we want to"

It will not affect me personally, as I'm retired and hardly drive anywhere, but it will make the world a better place, by making people pay for the costs they impose on society.

This new cost will hit poorer people harder than the rest, but there's no reason why road usage should be an exception to the general rules that (a) people should pay for what they use and (b) people ought to pay for the costs they impose on others. (The latter has not always been implemented, but in a better world it would be. It is the best way to combat pollution and climate change.)

The correct way to subsidise poorer people is by giving them cash through the benefits system, not by allowing unlimited use of certain designated resources.

You’ve made the mistake of thinking that VED pays for roads. VED + FED combined raised around £60bn in 2019. Road maintenance was around £10bn.

It’s just another government cash cow. At the end of the day they’re worried that collapse in fuel demand will collapse that revenue stream. So they’re going to probably introduce some other arbitrary tax to take more money out of the economy.

Surely it's going to screw over anyone who makes their living from either driving or travelling between multiple work locations/clients?

@RandomLondoner but not all 'poorer people' are on benefits. Minimum wage jobs, or just above, hardly class you as rich!

@NoSquirrels

I’m not sure why any motorist thinks that the ‘burden of paying for roads’ shouldn’t fall to them.

You use the roads. You pay for the infrastructure and upkeep. Your car is not causing less wear and tear because it’s electric.

There's more to it than that.

Only about 25% of the current fuel taxes go towards road maintenance. The rest is put towards other (non road-related) things such as the NHS. So, whilst motorists should pay for main road upkeep, there is a conversation to be had about whether they should pay more towards other services that are not related to road use - or if that should come from general tax rises so that everyone contributes fairly.