to question if the squeeze on living standards will not be temporary?

[bindud]

"British families are facing the biggest squeeze on living standards for 30 years as surging prices and tax rises take their toll."

"The Bank of England forecast a 2pc fall in incomes after tax this year – the worst since its records began in 1990. In 2023, they’re set to fall 0.5pc."

Apparently things will get better in 2023, but will they?

We have the frozen income tax bands, ageing population, & most likely more wage stagnation after a decade of it after the 08 crash.

Is life just going to be more & more expensive going forward for the vast majority of people? or am i being too pessimistic?

@Fallagain

“Notonthestairs

Fallagain
Even Reece Mogg said pre Brexit that things would be more difficult for a few decades.

Rees-Mogg...”

Apologies. I’m hoping pointing out this error made you feel better.

As you see from my follow on message below I was trying and failing to attach the full quote - I don't care how the haunted pencil spells his name.

Along with fuel at the pump £1.50 a litre

Don't be hoodwinked by that, though. Everybody understands shrinkflation when it comes to chocolate bars and the like, but people aren't nearly angry enough about what the government has done with petrol. Bulking it out to make it much less efficient and forcing people to have to fill up more often or, where (even new) engines have been adversely affected (and car repairs also attract VAT), having to switch up to the even more expensive Super petrol.

It's a master-stroke of deception and extortion, and I'm amazed they seem to have pretty much got away with it. Incidentally, is it still the case that we pay tax on tax for fuel, with VAT being levied based on the already heavily-taxed net price?

I don't care how the haunted pencil spells his name.

Oh, that is superb!!!! I will never think of him by his actual name again, however he spells it!

I did also once see a colourful child's bath-time accessory for sale in a supermarket, shaped like a star and with a face on it that looked exactly like JRM's. The product label said 'Fun Sponge'

@flapjackfairy

it is hard to see how we can avoid a recession going forward. Surely people cutting back to pay for food and energy means less spending on non essentials leading to businesses collapsing and rising unemployment. It is going to be a rough ride !

This is what I've been thinking. I've been cutting back on non essential spending since October. If enough people are doing the same then that will be hitting non essential retailers and service providers. I'm only buying replacement clothes and cosmetics. I only go out for coffee or to eat occasionally. I'm visiting my hairdresser and brows person less often. All these things will be hitting the local economy.

If it were just a UK problem you might be able to blame Brexit, but it isn't. Prices are going up all over Europe. According to this the UK is about in the middle of European inflation rates. Energy prices have shot up all over Europe. It's very lazy, if convenient, to blame everything bad on Brexit, but it's simply not true

Every country calculates inflation very differently, we inc one off non essential items, so TV prices fall that gets included, like wise cars going up get added in to.
I believe the ONS is going to look at what we spend day to day and see how that figure looks like.
On energy, we import gas and even electricity, those costs have to be added on as its now more expensive to do so.

Anything i get from the EU (and that inc stuff that is warehoused there) has rocketed in price, yet if i go to the online shops there, they have not gone up as much.

As i said early, other EU countries are doing far more to limit the rise on energy prices - we are not, that may not be anything to do with Brexit per se but it does make comparisons harder to see, which suits a cabinet picked only on their view Brexitier credentials.

don't care how the haunted pencil spells his name.

Thanks for making me 😂 on a shit day.

@LolaButt

It’s all well and good being told not to ask employers for pay rises, but at some point employers are going to need to reduce profits for shareholders, consortiums and partners in order to pay people properly.

I’m all for cutting my cloth accordingly, but if the cloth I’m being given each month is getting smaller each time then something has to give.

Yeah, this.

I’m unsure if we’ll feel it yet. So far we’ve absorbed rises without a problem. The mortgages on this house and the second house are paid off, but we have 2 gutsy vehicles. Swapping one for a sensible car makes sense, but I love mine . I won’t know how hard the impact will be until the new power bills hit tbh. Right now we’re rather comfortable but that may change in a heartbeat and we know it. I’ve overpaid the power so have £1100 in credit and I’m hoping that buys us time if it starts to cripple our disposable income. I don’t see it lasting long if the predictions are correct. DH was going to retire at 60 (54 now) and I’m studying for a new role with less work but neither may be as feasible as we thought 2 years ago. I’m 41 now and may well work until I’m late 60s now. It’s so hard to predict!

I've only read the first page or two of replies.... but I'm not sure many people realise the true magnitude of what might be happening.

Everyone, including people well below the poverty line in the UK are exceptionally wealthy on a global perspective. This, in the longterm isn't a question of whether you shop at Asda or Waitrose, it's a question about whether we stop eating meat and everyone starts growing some of their own food, gives up private transport, completely forgoes foreign holidays. Forever.

Something has to give, the 'developed' nations have had it far too good, for far to long, and we had ample opportunity to spread that wealth and development when times were good.

The reality is, that unless some quantum shift in energy and food production happens, the opulent minority on this planet are going to have to deal with living with a lot, lot less than we have been used to.

@Menofsteel

I’m unsure if we’ll feel it yet. So far we’ve absorbed rises without a problem. The mortgages on this house and the second house are paid off, but we have 2 gutsy vehicles. Swapping one for a sensible car makes sense, but I love mine . I won’t know how hard the impact will be until the new power bills hit tbh. Right now we’re rather comfortable but that may change in a heartbeat and we know it. I’ve overpaid the power so have £1100 in credit and I’m hoping that buys us time if it starts to cripple our disposable income. I don’t see it lasting long if the predictions are correct. DH was going to retire at 60 (54 now) and I’m studying for a new role with less work but neither may be as feasible as we thought 2 years ago. I’m 41 now and may well work until I’m late 60s now. It’s so hard to predict!

I'm not sure you are reading the room.... being in a situation where you gave no mortgage and are over a grand in credit for your fuel. I'm the same age as you, single parent working full time no benefits and mortgage til I'm 75. I have 180 pounds left this month for petrol and food and looking around front room what left to put on eBay. I know everyone has their own situations and worries... but know millions who would love to be as financially secure as you are

All depends on how you define "temporary".

Definitely not reading the room. Oh dear you only own two properties outright at 41 and are only over a grand in credit with the fuel company. You'll still be able to retire just fine fgs.

@FixTheBone

I've only read the first page or two of replies.... but I'm not sure many people realise the true magnitude of what might be happening.

Everyone, including people well below the poverty line in the UK are exceptionally wealthy on a global perspective. This, in the longterm isn't a question of whether you shop at Asda or Waitrose, it's a question about whether we stop eating meat and everyone starts growing some of their own food, gives up private transport, completely forgoes foreign holidays. Forever.

Something has to give, the 'developed' nations have had it far too good, for far to long, and we had ample opportunity to spread that wealth and development when times were good.

The reality is, that unless some quantum shift in energy and food production happens, the opulent minority on this planet are going to have to deal with living with a lot, lot less than we have been used to.

I agree with you in principle and this is why I also think some form of universal basic income is needed as part of tackling climate change and ensuring everyone can make better choices. It's easy to say grow your own food and stop using the car, but it's not a realistic possibility for someone who lives on the 4th floor of a block of flats and has to be in the office 40 hours a week while still getting their kids to school on time. Or someone who works two jobs just to keep a roof over their head - of course they'll shop at Primark instead of People Tree and buy the cheapest food, not the organic, free range option.

Then there is the whole other huge issue with countries like China and India where they are only now starting to get used to the lifestyle of excessive consumerism we've got used to here in the West over the past many decades. More demand for energy there will only make prices go up for everyone, and of course contribute to climate change.

@FixTheBone what I think is more likely than people giving up meat is government relaxing food standard to allow cheap meat to come in/more people adopting a vegetarian diet (the ones who can afford meat but choose not to). Communal living to pay the gas bills and increased food costs- people in China buy apartments with their parents at 50 times average annual salary (compared with 10x in London) and this increases buying power to this extent, so people can definitely afford to pay way more for food and gas if they do the same in the UK.. basically for those of you with kids, they are never going to leave :)

They interviewed some 24 year old guy with his own flat in the guardian and he said he is going to move back with parents if he can't afford the gas!

I come from a country (Singapore) where you need a certificate to own a car is the equivalent of £28000 and the total cost of a car is easily double that and guess what 25% of households still have cars! The luxuries that we are used to will still exist but we will probably have to rationalize them a lot more depending on our budgets.

@FixTheBone I do think we are seeing the decline of the "west" and the standards we expect & the younger developing countries will become more powerful.

@bindud I see UK as more of a 'Japan', not poor but stagnating. But many cities in China will be richer than many parts of the UK. Beijing GDP per capita is quite close to Manchester if I recall...

However depending on the government we choose, we might become more equal. After all the NHS was created when the British empires was in its dying days...for many people it may not necessarily be a downgrade if UK becomes poorer. It is the 'comfortable' middle class who are accustomed to 2 cars, large houses in the suburbs, many holidays who would ironically be facing the most stress. The competition for nice houses is global and so is demand for nice hotels and nice (electric) cars..

Well I think we have been stagnating for a while & perhaps we will stay there which would be better than declining.

More equality would be good but I can't see it happening.

Ok sorry, we have ordinary jobs (inheritance was 2nd place) our actual cash is normal. And it’s DH who has more of it due to his family, I have nothing to fall back on I should have explained it better. I feel vulnerable because if he decides he’s better off not supporting me I’m fucked. We aren’t exactly “getting on” rn. I could very easily end up with sfa soon so yes, I’m concerned

@MintJulia

Moving away from fossil fuels was always going to be painful. To achieve net zero, we have to consume less and that means everyone. If we are serious about it, then people need to re-evaluate, live to a lower standard. It isn't going to be popular, ever.

Not while rich people are taking the piss, no.

@FixTheBone

I've only read the first page or two of replies.... but I'm not sure many people realise the true magnitude of what might be happening.

Everyone, including people well below the poverty line in the UK are exceptionally wealthy on a global perspective. This, in the longterm isn't a question of whether you shop at Asda or Waitrose, it's a question about whether we stop eating meat and everyone starts growing some of their own food, gives up private transport, completely forgoes foreign holidays. Forever.

Something has to give, the 'developed' nations have had it far too good, for far to long, and we had ample opportunity to spread that wealth and development when times were good.

The reality is, that unless some quantum shift in energy and food production happens, the opulent minority on this planet are going to have to deal with living with a lot, lot less than we have been used to.

What about the super opulent ? Why is the man at the bottom who is just about breaking even always the one who has to pay ? So people below the poverty line in the Uk may be exceptionally wealthy on a global perspective but what good does that do them in the real world ? They still cant make ends meet and they still have to use the food banks that in the one of the richest countries in the world, shame us all. And give your head a wobble - it’s not about whether we stop eating meat or anything else. For some it’s about whether they can eat at all.

Ive had a £25,000 payrise since March 2020. And i still do not feel comfortable or secure. Its worrying times.

@Menofsteel

Ok sorry, we have ordinary jobs (inheritance was 2nd place) our actual cash is normal. And it’s DH who has more of it due to his family, I have nothing to fall back on I should have explained it better. I feel vulnerable because if he decides he’s better off not supporting me I’m fucked. We aren’t exactly “getting on” rn. I could very easily end up with sfa soon so yes, I’m concerned

You’d end up with at least a mortgage free house. You’re not going to be on the streets.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Along with fuel at the pump £1.50 a litre

Don't be hoodwinked by that, though. Everybody understands shrinkflation when it comes to chocolate bars and the like, but people aren't nearly angry enough about what the government has done with petrol. Bulking it out to make it much less efficient and forcing people to have to fill up more often or, where (even new) engines have been adversely affected (and car repairs also attract VAT), having to switch up to the even more expensive Super petrol.

It's a master-stroke of deception and extortion, and I'm amazed they seem to have pretty much got away with it. Incidentally, is it still the case that we pay tax on tax for fuel, with VAT being levied based on the already heavily-taxed net price?

As far as I can see people aren’t nearly angry enough about anything this government has done. They’re taking the piss, have shown nothing but contempt for us and we’re still accepting our lot.

Oh so you'd only have one mortgage free house, a car and a job and still 20 odd good working years to amass yet more security for retirement. How awful for you. You do need to get a grip I'm afraid and a touch of sensitivity.

Until someone finds a way to stop the runaway train that is capitalism, then this is just the beginning. It should be clear by now that the constant demand for growth is what will eventually doom us and much of the planet in the process as the capital class runs out of resources and, eventually, people to exploit.

First though our standards of life will slip, slowly at first just like we have seen over the last two decades but now more quickly as we’re seeing here. They will never recover.

Companies will continue to offshore jobs for as long as they can in order to keep costs low and profits high, but this will eventually no longer be necessary as a desperate local workforce will have no alternative but work or starve - the same kind of choice millions outside the West already face.

Authoritarian regimes will spring up, run in the background by the wealthy elites and created using media manipulation and fearmongering. Blaming all our problems on foreign enemies, they will pretend to advance some nationalist agenda, but it will be resources and labour for their companies that they will start wars for.

The descent is only just beginning.