Do you have charitable friendships?

[washingmachines4]

Do you have charitable friendships? – ie friendships you get nothing from other than feeling like you have done a good deed making someone feel better/keeping them company from time to time.

If you do, do you think they would do the same?

@BestZebbie - you are right in that it isn't a true friendship - I am not sure how to define or label it. I don't think it is akin to having a pet though. My pet gives me lots of joy, doesn't drain me at all and only makes me happy - even keeps me fit. The pet is by all accounts good for my quality of life which this 'friendship' is not. But I would feel very uncomfortable likening this person to a pet - changes the entire way I would view it to be quite weird and wrong.

You describe true friendship perfectly, I would never lean on her for support so you are right, it doesn't fit the normal dynamic.

@LakesandSnow

No I don't, because I'm not patronising and full of my sense of self importance.

Exactly this. What a fucking pompous thing to think and ask!

@Allsorts1 - this is what I am aiming for, a very measured approach where I do what I can without it getting too much

@Lipsandlashes - like I said the wording in the original was poorly chosen. Clearly others have relationships like those I have described.

If you have these all give, no take 'friendships', 'acquaintances', etc. how do you define it? Not that I suppose it needs a definition but you can't be honest that you spend time with someone because you feel sorry for them as that will isolate them further and make them feel worse. Do you just not interact, never be there for them, knowing they are being constantly rejected and sad?

Maybe in the past but it's not something I would do consciously.

My charity work is proper volunteering in areas I feel passionate about or are fun.

Not sure why anyone would choose to do this? It's like inviting people to use you? I'm introverted and shy so my friends tend to be fewer than some but quite close and long term.

@WhiteJellycat - Yeah I guess it is like 'inviting someone to use you' as you say, in a way.
But like giving money to charity is sharing your wealth to try to make an issue better, this is like sharing your time to try and make a person feel better. It isn't that dissimilar is it?

Ok, more generic question, I am think I know the answer to but would love to be wrong:
Is there a way to have an association of this kind honestly? For you and the other person to know it isn't a friendship but to allow you and want for you to be there and help them all the same so it has boundaries and limits. Or is this limited to what councillors and therapists should be for?

OP thanks for this thread. It has been very eye opening. I don't really know whether or not to comment. I think my experiences if this has been in a very different sphere of life which has been the homeless circuit. I say this as a homeless person myself but i have known many other homeless people to want to sort of attach on to me and my partner and for us to help them. Lots of times in the past we have done this and given what little money and resources we had away. To a large extent i told my partner to stop doing that as i found people did not appreciate it and no way would they ever reciprocate yet also whatever they said they needed if you gave it it did not solve the problem, they somehow just wanted more and more. As we are also homeless and were at the time it was significant to us to give away food etc. I cant really explain what I'm trying yo say, we did it to try to help people not for any gtatitude etc. But when you have given and realise that person would happily rob you or cause trouble for you it is so sad. At the same time i think we knew that could be a risk and did it anyway. I think that was mostly as we felt so lucky to have each other and to never be alone. At times we have had nothing else but always each other and that does mean always someone to try to help usually at least lol. I apologise for my ramblings and like i said I'm sorry if my experience is too irrelevant for this thread really as it is quite a specific experience.

@andysgirl22 - wow, your words are heartbreaking.
You and your partner sound like truly good people and I think the world needs more of you.
Our situations should not be compared - all my basic needs were met and all I committed was my time which did me no major detriment (I am beginning to feel a bit petty for complaining). You have committed both time and resources when your own basic needs have not been met, that is truly selfless.

You are right, it is incredibly sad when someone you help would cause you harm (stealing or making trouble), I have had this situation only once. And have subsequently kept them at arms length. It really does become a minefield if you are thinking - who is deserving. There are people who do harm to others intentionally and can be rational about it - this is awful.
Others who do harm because they are struggling with their MH, learning difficulties, don't understand, are struggling with addition, etc. These people often don't do harm deliberately - they can be good people who harm others without understanding, but they harm all the same and it hurts to be on the other side of it.

But it is a scale, no black and white answers, a lot of grey and no easy fixes. I wish there was an answer but it relies on a mass collective kindness at the very least.

I had a friend who I tried to help out when she had many issues with men and social services. I offered her a place to stay but since she brought a man who turned out to be a p43dophile to my child’s birthday party and two of her children were in danger and she is having another baby I put my family first and stopped contact.

Secondly I had a friend who was just so self-absorbed I could not bare it. I was moving back to the city she lived in and I had to unfriend her in real life. I did it via email and told her I cannot continue this friendship as it's too high maintenance. I got a lot of abuse back.

Another friend was constantly contrarian with me and always picking petty arguments and I could not deal with it any longer. That one I felt worse about saying something face-to-face and ghosted.

Another I offered help via facebook and she ended up being too high maintenance and was abusive towards me.

I no longer have time to be a charitable friend and I won't do it anymore and now I won't entertain it for one second. I am 40 years of age, I work, I maintain a home, and educate my daughter and there is literally no time left. All my good deeds in that regard are done.

This is such an interesting thread. I can totally understand how you end up in these situations. It's hard to ignore someone in need. You want to share a bit of your own good fortune in life with those who've been dealt a shitty hand. Sometimes it's really rewarding. It's also deeply uncomfortable to realise someone you're trying to help is abusing your kindness.

A friend who I'd supported for many years with anxiety and relationship issues recently excluded me from a significant event. It was very unexpected, deliberate and hurtful. I explained how I felt and then calmly withdrew contact and stuck to it.

They're now back. They say they're sad, they miss the friendship. What they really miss is the support. I can't counsel them to feel better about doing a shitty thing to me!

Thinking about it a bit harder, you have to be in place in your life where you can spare the energy. If your jug is full you can pour from it.

My husband's cousin could maybe fit into this category but she is family so I do love her. It's a kind of unconditional love so it's not a random selfless act. She has LD and gradually I feel I let her slip into away from cousins to me being a councillor. But she did this to everyone she met. She told me she was depressed and suicidal but she does this to all the cousins. She is a bottomless pit you could pour yourself into and it would never be enough. It was fine when I had the time and energy but then I had a disabled child and my jug was empty. I couldnt deal with her and cope with my lot on top. She has no awareness that anyone else has problems to. So I do think these things can go sour very easily. If you have the time and feel good helping you never know when your own situation can change. So on balance I still think it's a bad idea and I cant see myself ever doing this again. Befriending with rules from off is different. You could be a befriender and take on the role with rules and also be friends if even unbalanced. You both sign up for that openly from the off. But your doing it to repay a debt of kindness or to fill a named void ( like befriending in help the aged or home start). So its helping a cause to. But random people isnt so much that. It's a individual with no rules. What do you do when that person makes you sleepless with worry, drains you, demands all your time? Then when you reach the straw that breaks you ( in my case finding out at least five other people was dealing with suicide threats weekly, going back years and years). How do you stop that feeling of being taken for a mug and then resentful? I only look back wishing it had never happened. I didnt help her at all. In any way.

@vdbfamily

Hi Op. No judgement from me. I have a few friends who I very rarely get anything positive from being with but they are very needy and I have known and supported them for over 30 years. One of them had severe mental health issues from a childhood of horrendous abuse and had BPD. She had been actually banned from local mental health services for being abusive and aggressive. She is incredibly hard to be friends with but is cared for mainly by elderly Christians who have met her through various local churches and tried to mother her. I am nearer her age so she would clear me as her best friend but I have had horrendous abuse from her threatening to kill my children and burn my house down. She has physically assaulted me, once when I was heavily pregnant. However, if you heard about her childhood you would understand her behaviour so I limit my contact and make it in a public place that I can walk away from( which I have had to do) Someone has to love and care for such people and it is very hard. My other very difficult long term friend has learning difficulties and is profoundly deaf and very manipulative with it. I am not sure why she is manipulative but again I find spending time with her challenging but she has very few friends and I feel sad for her. Ironically, I now need to get ready to meet my friend with BPD. Have to collect her meds as the local chemists have all banned her!

This is interesting - would you have been so quick to forgive if she had actually harmed your child? I admire people like you who can put up with such bad behaviour. I’m wondering whether someone people are just kind , or have a ‘full jug’ in terms of other people supporting them.

I have always been more compassionate. As I’ve gotten older I’m less judgemental. I don’t think of people as ‘bad’, as you said there are root causes of their behaviour.

However I don’t think everyone has to be ‘loved and cared for’. Because from a philosophical POV the existence of a ‘right’ means that someone’s accountable for providing it. You can’t force people to love and care for someone else. Even paid carers, therapists etc assist in a professional capacity, not with feeling.

I’d also imagine easy for me to feel charitable when I have spare capacity. As it stands I have little free time, subtract ‘alone time’ from it and I have very little to spend with people I actually love.

In a way all of the push for everyone to work etc has removed a lot of society’s support structures. Back in the day SAHM had a strong community, most women did support of some sort. Through church, or women’s associations. Now a lot of that has gone away.

@WhiteJellycat

Thinking about it a bit harder, you have to be in place in your life where you can spare the energy. If your jug is full you can pour from it.

My husband's cousin could maybe fit into this category but she is family so I do love her. It's a kind of unconditional love so it's not a random selfless act. She has LD and gradually I feel I let her slip into away from cousins to me being a councillor. But she did this to everyone she met. She told me she was depressed and suicidal but she does this to all the cousins. She is a bottomless pit you could pour yourself into and it would never be enough. It was fine when I had the time and energy but then I had a disabled child and my jug was empty. I couldnt deal with her and cope with my lot on top. She has no awareness that anyone else has problems to. So I do think these things can go sour very easily. If you have the time and feel good helping you never know when your own situation can change. So on balance I still think it's a bad idea and I cant see myself ever doing this again. Befriending with rules from off is different. You could be a befriender and take on the role with rules and also be friends if even unbalanced. You both sign up for that openly from the off. But your doing it to repay a debt of kindness or to fill a named void ( like befriending in help the aged or home start). So its helping a cause to. But random people isnt so much that. It's a individual with no rules. What do you do when that person makes you sleepless with worry, drains you, demands all your time? Then when you reach the straw that breaks you ( in my case finding out at least five other people was dealing with suicide threats weekly, going back years and years). How do you stop that feeling of being taken for a mug and then resentful? I only look back wishing it had never happened. I didnt help her at all. In any way.

Exactly this! Also yes - your situation could change in a heartbeat. For me it was almost failing my degree ( that would mean me being kicked out of the country… and leaving my parents thousands of pounds in debt , almost half a million in my country’s currency). Even now my situation’s precarious, and I’m very guarded.

Also correct that it’s the lack of rules that’s an issue.

Two

One is historical and we have had good times in the past and I can’t bring myself to let her down,even though I don’t really get a lot out of it anymore.

One is very ill and I feel I can’t let her down.

Sanbeiji
It is a very interesting subject and dear to my heart. The friend I reference would see me as her best friend and yet sometimes I don't even like her. And yet I can rationalise that that is the same with my children. I have an 18 year old DD recently diagnosed with ADHD and her behaviour over the years had been like living in an abusive relationship but my love for her is a done deal even when she is being hideous.That is being a parent, but I have found as a Christian, that I have an ability to love some people that are often unlikeable for much of the time. There is good in everyone somewhere and if you treat them in the way you would like to be treated by others, it brings out the good in them. I don't know what I would have done had my child been hurt but she has physically assaulted my mother before and although I was extremely cross with her over that, it did not stop me meeting her monthly.
I think the comments about needing to feel supported enough as an individual and having the headspace to make time for difficult friends is definitely true and at the tougher periods of my life I have found it much much harder. I am also constantly aware that I am not the friend they need me to be as the 2 main people I reference are unemployed and spend all day trying to fill their time, whereas I work a 40 plus hour week and have 3 teenagers and hardly get a moment to breathe so feel like I am fobbing them off a lot. Fortunately they are persistent!!

I don't necessarily agree that treating others the way you'd want to be treated brings out the good. I think it's a lovely idea, and what I do, but naive.

When I first started managing people it was my approach too. I thought if I were fair, kind and consistent nobody would ever take the piss. I'd never have performance management issues. 20 years on and I've dismissed more people than I can count. It was usually the ones where I gave too much leeway to start with, unfortunately.

Sometimes people are too damaged or self absorbed to be reachable in this way.

I have a friendship that dips into this, she has severe mental health problems, so when it’s at its worst the focus is obviously on her. This is fine by me, as I don’t have any need for support right now, so I have the capacity to give more than I need to take. We have been friends since we were teens and I know she would be there for me in a heartbeat

Whirly, I also manage people and kind of agree with what you say but it does not ever stop me trying. Was discussing this with a senior colleague this week as we both like to think the best of everyone and have had that go spectacularly wrong a few times, however it would not ever stop me starting off like that. I also have zero tolerance of poor behaviour to others and if I get wind of any unpleasantness, it is dealt with promptly and staff are reminded of the values of the organisation and warned that a repeat offence will involve disciplinary process. As the NHS, not quite so easy to fire people! It is however very important to lead by example.

"Thinking about it a bit harder, you have to be in place in your life where you can spare the energy. If your jug is full you can pour from it."

This is so true - I have a full jug so I can (almost no time but I have both happiness and energy, I am not drained) - it is right people say what happens if your situation changes, you don't know what is around the corner. The latest replies are really interesting and I connect with many of the stories coming out. Thank you

I have found business to be a different kettle of fish, whilst I can care about the person and want a good outcome for them, they were hired to do a job and need to be able to do it well. If they need a reasonable adjustment made, I'll make every effort to make it. If they need training, I'll back them to the hilt but as the phrase goes 'change the person, or change the person' so I'll train them, support them, lead by example but ultimately if there is no shift in behaviour or output, I'll change the actual person and get them out and get someone competent in. I have a disconnect emotionally to a degree because ultimately if I don't do my job well, it'll impact on more than just me and this one person.

Yes, that perfectly describes my approach now. A junior colleague described me as "lovely, but I wouldn't mess" and I figured that was probably ideal

I'm still inclined to think the best of everyone but far less willing to give more than a second chance these days.

I did, throughout my early 20s I was the friend that was there for everyone. Then at 25 I went through a truly terrible time, really needed a friend, and none of then where anywhere to be seen.
I still see them socially infrequently, but I wouldn't jump to be there for any of them anymore.