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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we will never be homeowners?

248 replies

GroundToAHalterNeck · 02/02/2022 13:55

House prices are completely out of my reach now. DH and I are low earners due to life circumstances, no family support and a SN child requiring high levels of care.

We currently rent our home. I’ve been looking at options to buy but even the cheapest home in the cheapest areas would require a substantial deposit. Help To Buy and other government schemes also require a huge deposit we are unlikely to ever be able to save whilst paying rent too.

I met a friend for coffee this morning and she was explaining how they’re planning to upsize and how she will make a huge profit on their current home. It made me wonder how on earth first time buyers with no financial help would get on the property ladder in current times?

Is anyone else in the same position?

OP posts:
catfunk · 02/02/2022 20:53

Op where do you live ? What is your joint Income ?
It took us till age 37 (could have done it much sooner if moved up north) in an expensive area -
But we had 2 modest incomes and no child care.
I think a lot of people have a helping hand from generational wealth and are coy about admitting it.

onlychildhamster · 02/02/2022 21:02

@LonglegsMumtheBlacksmith I didn't do that, I am in my 20s and so i was able to stay with DH's family for 3 years to save up. DH had 3 sisters and lived in a 3 bed terraced house so was quite cramped.

But a lot of people in london with a lot of money to buy have done that. I know a couple who moved to HK before moving back to London and managed to save up lots of money to have a baby (and hire a nanny). I even read an article before about someone who moved to singapore to save up a deposit as she had free housing there due to her expat contract.

I am not saying it is right; I just don't know any alternative. Even people with higher incomes do stuff like that as I guess they have higher expectations.

RedToothBrush · 02/02/2022 21:03

My understanding is that the risk of a 100% mortgage is that if prices come down you're in negative equity. If you have paid 10% down you have a buffer from that happening.

Happy to stand corrected if that isn't the case

Speaking as someone who refused to take out a 100% mortgage on the grounds that it was fucking insane, and instead insisted on doing a minimum of 10% down in 2007 because it looked highly suspicious (and we had mates who worked on the stockmarket warning us) that there was about to be a crash in the market, yes you are correct.

Even then we ended up in negative equity for a number of years, even though we also over paid the mortgage. We figured, that the alternative would have been to rent for a few years and miss the opportunity to buy where we really wanted so thought it was six of one, half a dozen of the other if things went south. We just had to stay there long enough to turn it around.

We eventually sold for what we paid. 13 years later. Lots of other people who bought in the area at the same time were utterly screwed and competing against people who made a shed load of money on property down south.

We knew friends who had said 'the banks wouldn't lend us that much if we couldn't afford it' who we warned not to go down the 100% mortgage route. They promptly got into a world of financial pain.

The thing is, 100% mortgages and shared ownership only work if the market value of houses stays the same or steadily increases. If it doesn't, you get fucked. 100% mortgages and assisted buying schemes only work if interest rates don't suddenly hoink up. No one is stressing this enough at the moment, which they should be.

Atm one of the reasons house prices are continuing to go up, is because there aren't many people moving, so the supply of houses being restricted is pushing up prices.

If interest rates start to go up, all bets are off. A lot of people will struggle with that on top of other price rises. What happens is unknown really but the danger is certainly a load of people start to default on both rents and mortgages. The buy to let market is particularly fragile, with lots of people who have built up a portfolio based on a foundations in the sand. The potential for people to lose the lot scares me. If you get a load of repos and the market value of houses starts to falter. That doesn't mean its easier to buy a house as a first time buyer, so the banks tighten up on their lending rules and insist on buyers being able to demonstrate they have greater levels of affortability.

There might be opportunities for cash buyers - you know the people who have all the money to begin with. But if people can't pay rents, the rental market starts to lose high risk rather than such an easy way to make money. You have to have enough behind you, to be willing to play the long game and be willing to risk tenants defaulting.

I don't know whats going to happen in the coming months ahead, but that big cost of living crunch doesn't look like a good combo, and frankly I think you'd be off your fucking rocker to go for a 100% mortgage in that uncertainity. You might get lucky and be grand, but you also might get completely fucked.

The big issue is that affordability based on average wages has skyrocketed. There is a ceiling limit to how much people can pay on mortgages or rent. If you've got no more money or are maxed up on debt, you can't get more. Once you hit the maximum level that people have available to spend on housing, which I'd argue we are all to rapidly approaching, things don't look particularly nice.

Things definitely have a 2007 pre-crash vibe going on atm. Not the same as before, but there's a growing tension.

Mountaingoat12 · 02/02/2022 21:13

I can’t see that the current price rises are sustainable. I hope any crash helps those struggling to buy. I have a nice place but first bought many years ago.

The high house prices represent a drop in living standards over generations. Young people often can’t afford to buy in the safe, vibrant, fun communities that their parents did for instance. Young people can’t afford to have a stay at home parent. Young people are often limited by how many kids they have and when they have them, all due to house price rises. All the time while watching older generations who have had a much better standard of living making ill-judged comments (muntering on about 15% interest, not being able to afford a telly, sitting on cardboard boxes for 15 years, just give up avocados…). It must hurt.

seekinglondonlife · 02/02/2022 21:26

@Summerof74 renting can be really crap, cand it's nothing to do with being attached to a house. The rental market across the UK has boomed, with competition pushing rental prices to extortionate rates. My eldest dc has moved house 6 times. We are very lucky in that our current home is a long term rental. The downside is that it's falling to pieces, LL doesn't want to invest any money in it. But the rent has been capped and the area is really good, so we suck it up.

RedToothBrush · 02/02/2022 21:30

@Mountaingoat12

I can’t see that the current price rises are sustainable. I hope any crash helps those struggling to buy. I have a nice place but first bought many years ago.

The high house prices represent a drop in living standards over generations. Young people often can’t afford to buy in the safe, vibrant, fun communities that their parents did for instance. Young people can’t afford to have a stay at home parent. Young people are often limited by how many kids they have and when they have them, all due to house price rises. All the time while watching older generations who have had a much better standard of living making ill-judged comments (muntering on about 15% interest, not being able to afford a telly, sitting on cardboard boxes for 15 years, just give up avocados…). It must hurt.

This in a nutshell.

The crap about 'get a job in dubai' and 'adjust your expectations because unlike your parents you are unreasonable to think you should be able to afford a 3 bed and have a couple of kids' is dreadful.

How is it progress to think that you have to leave the country to earn enough tax or rent free to just have a secure place to live long term? How is it progress to suggest you should be living in overcrowded homes?

Younger people are already having children later and having less of them. Isn't that a sacrife in its own right? One that might be necessary, but it certainly highlights the reductions in life opportunities and life choices available to young people.

Once upon a time, if you sacrified and worked hard there was a good chance there would be a reward at the end of it. Now? There isn't that guarentee and you still have to get lucky as well as working hard.

Why do young people 'eat avocados'? Its because they've lost hope and think whats the point in saving up for something, you'll never be able to afford anyway? Might as well blow the money you have and enjoy life whilst you can before you end up homeless because you can't afford to live anywhere - afterall, its only a matter of time.

LonglegsMumtheBlacksmith · 02/02/2022 21:32

@Whammyyammy

I've not inherited, but I'm.making sure my kids do and that I can retire early. If that's a bad thing 🤷‍♂️not bothered. I'm.lookimg after me and my family.

That isn't a bad thing but I find you gloating about it a bit distasteful. The OP has asked for advice on how to get onto the property ladder.

Whammyyammy · 02/02/2022 21:50

[quote LonglegsMumtheBlacksmith]@Whammyyammy
Correct: I do not have a lodger living in my rented home. I can't see anyone paying much to sleep on the sofa as we don't have a spare room.
My point is that a young person would not be able to buy your flat in central Bath now, whether they were prepared to take in a lodger or not. That's not an option, so what are they supposed to do?
Taking a lodger is a sacrifice, but lots of people do it. A PP has suggested that I leave my family to work in Dubai for a few years in order to save a deposit for a massive debt to the bank house. Would you have done that? [/quote]
Actually yes and a greatexample for me, not Dubai, but still in the UAE, Abu Dhabi.l Spent 3 years living near Yas Island/the Airport, working at a an aircraft maintenance facility, male dominated and awful laws for women and before it was as popular, but it was actually a fantastic opportunity.

I appreciate its harder now, doesn't mean it was easy for me. I'm neither a boomer or had an inheritance. I worked hard, went without and fortunately on the ladder, I put that down to education from my grandparents about housing.

Whammyyammy · 02/02/2022 21:55

[quote LonglegsMumtheBlacksmith]@Whammyyammy

I've not inherited, but I'm.making sure my kids do and that I can retire early. If that's a bad thing 🤷‍♂️not bothered. I'm.lookimg after me and my family.

That isn't a bad thing but I find you gloating about it a bit distasteful. The OP has asked for advice on how to get onto the property ladder.
[/quote]
I agree, my first response to this thread was me saying the the only way I could get on the property ladder was buying a 2 bed flat after years of saving and having to take in a lodger so I could pay the mortgage.

You're referring to me having to defend myself as the cause of high housing costs due to still owning my flat still and a house🤷‍♂️

Warblerinwinter · 02/02/2022 21:59

@springblossom22

DH and I are in the same position, low earners and zero savings. Hoping when our youngest (11 months) starts school we can really get our heads down and save but even then, the size of the deposit we'd need and the monthly payments for our mortgage (as we'd be well into our 30s by the time we might ever buy) makes me anxious.

Years ago mortgages were cheaper than renting, but now there seems to be little difference if you don't have a substantial deposit. A 3 bed semi-detached where we are, with a £25,000 deposit (which I think is a huge amount but clearly not) would cost us over £1,200 a month mortgage repayments for 35 years. Hoping to win the lottery 😂😂

It’s simply not true that years ago mortgages were cheaper than renting- where on earth do you get this from! Years ago my mortgage repayments was higher on an £85k house than on my £150k house 20 years later- interest rates were at 10% or higher, yes house price was lower but it cost people way more The real issue was caused when council housing stock was sold- lotsofpeop,e voted for thatcher because of that policy and now their children or grandchildren cant afford housing at all. The availability of council housing meant private rentals cost were low, and that house prices were not out of control. Generally supply met demand . There was also more house building for reasonably priced housing for same reason
Dimondsareforever · 02/02/2022 22:00

Prices are at the top of the bubble at the moment. Unfortunately I fear we are in for a big burst / crash. Keep saving, and just wait. They may become back in reach soon.

Regarding your friends, yes they’ve made a tonne of money in their house, but they will need all that to get the next step up the ladder. So the £ they have made is irrelevant.

Dreamstate · 02/02/2022 22:00

Obviously having a child first will not make it any easier but obviously you know that and that can't be changed.

I actually think lockdown and wfh has made it even more difficult because before you at least has areas that were more affordable or attainable and london and some other areas remained expensive.

Unfortunately as people move away from cities as they can wfh its driven prices up in outer areas. What were once affordable are beyond reach.

I also thought id sell up in London and be able to move further out and get more space but thats not longer true anymore.

It really doesn't help

ufucoffee · 02/02/2022 22:04

Depends where you live. You can buy nice 2 bedroom flats round here for under 100k. You can buy houses if you move a bit further out for under 80k.

LillianGish · 02/02/2022 22:06

It's not the end of the world to rent - in the UK renting is so weighted in favour of landlords the poor tenant never really has security of tenure. Fine if you're a student or a young single person who has just left home and is likely to be on the move again, but not if it's your family home and you can be turfed out at the drop of a hat if the landlord decides to sell or move back in. We need proper social housing for long-term renters then renting really wouldn't be the end of the world. To the OP (and others wondering how they can buy) I would say you need to look at what you can afford and what compromises you are prepared to make. You quite possibly won't be able to afford a house of the same standard and size or in as a nice an area as the one which you are renting, but if you want to buy you have to bite that bullet.

dressicarabbit · 02/02/2022 22:12

I think it's awful OP and I'm gutted for you and all the people who can't get on the housing ladder. I echo speaking to an independent mortgage broker, and trying as hard as you can to get a social housing property.

Tealightsandd · 02/02/2022 22:13

We pay a fortune in rent, but that apparently doesn't demonstrate to a bank that we can afford to pay less each month for a mortgage.

This is a huge - and growing - issue.

The majority of government, media, and public focus has been on the deposit. That's an issue, yes, but for an increasing number of would be FTB the main stumbling block is lender mortgage income requirements. It's now affecting approximately 40-45% of would be FTB.

I noticed the shared ownership schemes in my area ask for very low deposits. Shared ownership has its pitfalls but I guess also some appeal, although I don't know enough about it whether to recommend it. But what really struck me was, it's being marketed as affordable housing. Yet the minimum income requirements were quite high. As for the Help to Buy. Inaccessible for lower or even middling incomes.

Tealightsandd · 02/02/2022 22:13

The public health housing and homelessness emergency isn't only something that affects families on a personal level. It also costs the taxpayer many billions.

Billions on expensive homeless accommodation. Billions on housing benefits for high private rents. Billions and billions on the indirect impact - the negative physical and mental health effects.

While we don't want another subprime crisis, the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

We need some relaxation on the mortgage affordability eligibility. And an economy boosting mass social housing build.

OP and everyone else needs and deserves a secure affordable home.

Warblerinwinter · 02/02/2022 22:15

@LonglegsMumtheBlacksmith

In the same boat and seriously pissed off with older people (70s) basically saying that we're just not prepared to make the sacrifices that they did. In our area a big standard 2 bed terrace (no parking, tiny yard, bathroom downstairs behind the kitchen) costs around £450K...we both work in this area but earn below average. What the f*ck am I supposed to sacrifice in order to afford a house?! We never go on holiday, my car is an old banger, my clothes come from the supermarket. We do have small amounts of money to spare and we do buy little treats / occasionally eat out or get a take away. I suppose if we sacrificed those things we would save a deposit in around 300 miserable years?
I agree it not about sacrifice…but I do agree about the principle of what’s being said Even 40 years ago most peoples outgoings were a lot lower… very few people ate out or even had takeaways, holidays for many families were rare, uk based and basic, technology was limited to a single black and white telly, a radio or two, maybe kids with dustman or ghetto blaster, a single landline phone. People generally had 1 car if that. Rates were cheaper, bills generally proportionally cheaper as all nationalised and we were producing coal. Clothes were bought in limited amounts and bought to last. But everyone, even as a middle class child, was in same boat Expectations were not as high. People had less stuff. People repaired stuff that was broken We can’t turn that clock back. But, it is true people saved as a priority to buy a home. Maybe it was easier because we didn’t have all the additional expenses people see as essentials these days We bought our first home in 1990. Cost us £85k for 2 up 2 down. Yep cheap by todays standard. But our mortgage was nearly £1000/mth at points due to obscene interest rates. When we paid of our mortgage on our last home 2 years ago our payments were just over £850/mth on a £150k mortgage. It wasn’t cheaper to pay a mortgage back then- it was bloody expensive and a massive chunk of our income driving us into debt at one point when interest rates maxed out. Yes, property was cheaper to buy…but that was because interest rates were normally so much higher. I wouldn’t have believed we’d get to a base rate of 1% 10 years ago, let alone 35 years ago.
Warblerinwinter · 02/02/2022 22:16

Kids with Walkmans not dustman 🤣🤣

Warblerinwinter · 02/02/2022 22:19

@Tealightsandd

The public health housing and homelessness emergency isn't only something that affects families on a personal level. It also costs the taxpayer many billions.

Billions on expensive homeless accommodation. Billions on housing benefits for high private rents. Billions and billions on the indirect impact - the negative physical and mental health effects.

While we don't want another subprime crisis, the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

We need some relaxation on the mortgage affordability eligibility. And an economy boosting mass social housing build.

OP and everyone else needs and deserves a secure affordable home.

Absolutely. Bring back council housing. Cut out middle men making profit called housing associations. One Eason I can’t vote for labour- this should be the priority before even education. Not beforefood though. F#&£# foodbanks
ComtesseDeSpair · 02/02/2022 22:20

The problem is that “we need far more social housing” is a pretty nebulous phrase. Firstly, Britain’s last home building boom, the heyday of social housing, took advantage of physical conditions which we can’t replicate. Land was cheaper and more available: in cities housing was built on wasteland formerly taken up by buildings which had been bombed out in WW2, on land vacated as Britain deindustrialised and factories closed, on the sites of the dilapidated tenements which were cleared. Secondly, from a societal point of view, we’ve since learned that building designated estates where we house the least advantaged people doesn’t work and leads to ghettoisation and poor outcomes for the majority. So our building problem is further hampered, because when you suggest building mixed tenure developments, or on smaller areas of brownfield in residential areas, the planning objections go through the roof because whilst people say “just build social housing” they all too often also say “but not near where I live.”

Housing associations took over the provision of social housing from councils because they have the ability and capacity to borrow money and build in a way that councils don’t: they aren’t a “middle man”, they’re fulfilling a purpose councils are unable to.

Tealightsandd · 02/02/2022 22:25

Many many people do not have lots of non essential outgoings. Not even the odd treat to make the difference between living and existing.

The public health housing and homelessness emergency is the consequence of: Right to Buy (shockingly still not banned in England), a growing population without the necessary funding in housing and infrastructure to meet needs, and Blair and Brown's push for Buy to Let (we need some private landlords but don't need investors snapping up multiple properties pushing up prices and outbidding FTB).

The answer is:

a) End Right to Buy in England (it's already banned in the devolved nations).

b) Some relaxation of minimum income requirements for mortgages.

c) An economy boosting large-scale nationwide social housing build.

Cantgetgoing · 02/02/2022 22:27

The only reason we could is because we bought a house in a cheap area in the North West where we grew up and a 5% deposit was less than £10,000. Appreciate thats not an option for many and also prices seem to have gone crazy since we bought a few years ago!

Tealightsandd · 02/02/2022 22:30

@ComtesseDeSpair

There is evidently plenty of land available for the many expensive luxury homes being built. Including the unaffordable for many Help To Buy.

As for cost. Like I say, it's an upfront expenditure but long term saves the taxpayer many many billions. The direct and indirect impact of the public health housing and homelessness emergency costs billions every year.

Singinghollybob · 02/02/2022 22:33

It's so difficult and vastly dependant on area too. We managed it by living in a relatively cheap area and moving into my parents' house to save up to save on rental costs.
I imagine it'd be so much harder if you have children before buying, and having to pay rent whilst trying to save up a deposit.