To think it’s daft to make big life decisions based on WFH without checking it’s permanent?

[GoldenOmber]

My work used to be office-based. We’ve all been WFH since March 2020 because of government rules (not in England).

This week the government lifted that rule, and later that day our employers told us what the plans were to start bringing us back. This is pretty flexible - not starting for a month or two yet, will still allow a lot of WFH for people who want it (like 9 days a fortnight with one in the office). Most people are ok with this. Some people really aren’t.

Now we are having drama over email with a small but vocal group saying how angry/upset they are, because they have made big changes based around getting to WFH and it will now be difficult for them to go back at all. Even 1 day a fortnight starting in April. Changes like moving house far away from office; getting a dog and not wanting to leave the dog alone; selling car and not wanting to get public transport b/c germs (not just covid, all germs).

Work have ALWAYS said WFH was temporary though! I have some sympathy for how long it’s going to take you to commute from your new house in the middle of nowhere, but SURELY you’d factor that in when you bought it?

YABU - no, after 2 years of WFH working fairly well it was reasonable to expect it to continue without checking.

YANBU - yes, they should obviously have checked.

The thing is, I've worked for home for years, before it became fashionable. A lot of stuff cannot be done remotely, and you miss out big-time on personal networking if nobody ever sees your face. I'm shifting into a hybrid role (going into the office for several hours, three times a week, WFH the rest of the time) next year, now that my youngest is a bit older, and I can't wait!

The other thing is that when you work from home, over time you realize that you start to become more dependent on RL socializing to maintain your sanity. I live centrally because I need my friend networks and I need the buzz of people around me when I go out for walks, social stuff and errands. If I had loads of social contact in an office every day, I might be more content with chilling in a suburban garden the rest of the time.

They’re all justifying it on the basis of feminism and womens rights and it being better for work/life balance and stuff but like… I’m also a woman, with a need for that balance?

Yes, but are you a mother, or are you planning to be one? Being a woman per se does not require workplace flexibility, for the most part.

@ZoeTheThornyDevil

Just because work can be done completely remotely in the face of a crisis and/or very pressing reason why it must be, doesn't mean work should be done completely remotely forever. I've been running the numbers for my organisation and virtual working has had a real, persistent drag effect on a number of important soft metrics. We won't go back to permanent in-office, but physical time together matters.

YANBU.

What's an important soft metric??

Everyone who can and wants to WFH should be allowed to do so.

The word 'can' is very difficult to define.

@HomeSw33tHome

Everyone who can and wants to WFH should be allowed to do so.

Nope-not if their boss wants them back in the office.

A lot of services have been abysmal since covid-it will be good to have people back in the office to speed things up again.

My brother works in a high end tech job and the employees were asked how many days they wanted to work from home, everyone put one day in the office - they were told that the bosses were furious and were asking them why they should employ British staff when they could get staff who work remotely abroad at cheaper cost.
I worry that if office infrastructure is allowed to dissapear and the work force disperses then the cohesion of an organisation will gradually be lost and they will gravitate towards cheaper remote workers abroad.

@Xoxoxoxoxoxox

My brother works in a high end tech job and the employees were asked how many days they wanted to work from home, everyone put one day in the office - they were told that the bosses were furious and were asking them why they should employ British staff when they could get staff who work remotely abroad at cheaper cost. I worry that if office infrastructure is allowed to dissapear and the work force disperses then the cohesion of an organisation will gradually be lost and they will gravitate towards cheaper remote workers abroad.

The "cheaper remote workers abroad" have always been there. If they were really cheaper, then companies would already use them.

They aren't, for a number of reasons.

Also, for those standing on the "social interaction, think about the poor new hires!" point -- why is the employer responsible for someone's social well-being?

@Blueeyedgirl21

Someone at my partners work is affronted about going back to the office because ‘her kids don’t want to go back to after school club’ so she now wants to be able to finish at 3 to collect them every day. Absolute loon.

I sympathise to an extent, my children who were happy enough with after school clubs pre-pandemic are now well aware that they can happily look after themselves/ do homework in the house whilst their parents work, thanks to the endless months of homeschooling. So it can be a battle to get them to want to go.

We work it out though and between minimal clubs, splitting the load with DH and a bit of family helps, so I am back in the office 2-3 days a week

I was never a big fan of wfh I did it occasionally if I needed to be home for a delivery or something but struggled to work without a proper desk set up for health reasons. I've got used to it over the last two years though, and have a spare bedroom a proper desk etc.

Now I have the reverse problem that we're moving to a hybrid model, so I'll have to be in the office some of the time, we're waiting to hear if there are any rules around how much time, but all my IT kit, and the chair I need for my disability are all at home. It's going to be interesting to see how things pan out. Refusing to go in or causing a fuss isn't an option, I'm sure some people will but it'll be career limiting.

I've been running the numbers for my organisation and virtual working has had a real, persistent drag effect on a number of important soft metrics.

Not the poster in question, but "forming relationships with new important customers" and "trying to throw ideas around in discussions" are two things that don't really work very well in remote. And I've worked remote for a long time!

why is the employer responsible for someone's social well-being?

You, a worker, have responsibilities towards your organization. And the other people who work there! Is it that hard to understand?

I think hybrid work is brilliant for so many jobs and 100% remote is OK for certain roles, but there are good reasons why many/most jobs will continue to require at least some in-person presence.

I always thought it was mad all these people leaving cities and heading out to the countryside and assuming that would work.

Cannot believe the people who just assumed they could move a long way from their jobs and make major life changes because of a temporary situation in response to a pandemic.

The “oh well we live in Cornwall now” is not going to cut it. Yes you felt like moving somewhere idyllic because in lockdown all you could do was go outdoors? Well we all felt like it but some people remembered they have jobs.

Buying a property seems crazy without that WFH contract guarantee, especially early on. I guess some perhaps had planned as an investment and can rent it out

Given dog rehoming adverts I've seen in the past some people really don't think ahead at all. However many people saw an opportunity to be home for puppy months and assumed the dog would be fine then to be left by time went back and many aren't as have become reliant on the company. Even some dogs that were used to being left previously have since developed some separation anxiety.

I agree with you, OP, but I also think that wfh will be a big selling point when it comes to recruiting staff.

If a company wants people back in the office after two years of wfh and some members of staff say they now can’t come back because they’ve moved out of commuting distance:

a) staff need to fulfil their contractual obligations. If they’ve moved 100s of miles away without getting something in writing to say they could wfh forever, they were daft to do so.

BUT b) if staff now can’t or don’t want to come back to the office, company needs to be prepared to lose them to another company with more flexible working policies. IMO.

The job market is a healthy one for jobseekers and recruitment is expensive. If someone has proven they can do their job from home, why would a company not want to facilitate that to keep them?

We have traditionally had a culture of presenteeism in this country - bums on seats and late nights in the office are sometimes viewed as more important than results, in my experience (25 years of working in the public and private sector).

I changed my job during lockdown, and now work in a team that has no connection with anyone at my workplace.
I hope to continue to WFH, as my tasks require different surroundings (like a quiet office of my own) that aren’t possible in the open-plan office at work.
However, until it’s written in stone that I can continue to WFH, I won’t move or sell my car - as my contract hasn’t changed, and that gives my place of work as the office.
People who have moved or otherwise made huge life changes without getting confirmation that WFH can be permanent are, IMO bonkers!

Preseneeism is sexist shit and much easier for male employees to do. It already holds women with kids back in the workplace prepandemic. Sad to see so many posters, who sound like working mothers themselves criticising others for trying to break free from it and demand more flexibility where their job can be done perfectly well from home. I agree that not all jobs are like that obviously, but many are.

Maybe if people didn’t immediately line up alongside their bosses to agree that everyone should come straight back to the office - we’d all have more options in our working lives? And all of our kids will have more options in theirs?

What do you feel you will lose out on yourself by letting other people stick their necks out for trying something new, given the extortionate cost of buying and renting in cities? It’s backwards and selfish to be flatly objecting to others doing that because ‘it’s how it’s always been’. Living in or near cities has changed massively since our day. Housing costs to rent or buy have escalated out of all proportion, outstripping (and on top of) even the other huge cost of living rises which wages are not rising to meet. Employees living a lot further out can see a big difference. Perhaps they’ve got very much less choice, not more choice, than you had at their age?

@DowningStreetParty good post.

DD, 22, just finished uni, chose her first job, admin' in Central London, on the basis of it DEFINITELY offering FT office working after a difficult, miserable and lonely final two years of uni. It's not her chosen career, (she's not sure what that is yet) but going in to a workplace does broaden her skills and add to her CV. It also gives her an insight into other roles in this kind of workplace. She even loves the buzz of getting up, doing make up, work/afterwork drinks/meeting new people and generally burning the candle at both ends. There should be 3 people in her role but her firm can't find the other two to sit alongside her despite nearly 30 interviews, (WTAF?) so she's been holding their responsibilities too since September. The office consists of mainly young (though older than her) professionals who book desks 1 or 2 days a week and on a good day they're only half full. Those who do come in seem to be unable to make their wheely chairs go up and down or use the coffee machine or find their lockers... despite being engineers.
She spends A LOT of her day sorting out problems like this, or trying to smooth over returning to work niggles.
I've told her to ask for a pay rise.

I don’t know anyone who has been asked to return 5 days per week. It’s generally 2 days. Moving forward, any employer not offering hybrid is going to look very unattractive to job applicants

Preseneeism is sexist shit and much easier for male employees to do. It already holds women with kids back in the workplace prepandemic. Sad to see so many posters, who sound like working mothers themselves criticising others for trying to break free from it and demand more flexibility where their job can be done perfectly well from home.

I agree with this to an extent but I think hybrid working and allowing people to choose how much to be in will make this worse, not better. I'm a bit worried that we'll end up in a situation where the men are back in the office and the women with caring responsibilities aren't, and that it'll really entrench and exacerbate inequality rather than solve it.

If someone has proven they can do their job from home, why would a company not want to facilitate that

And for all those who have demonstrated to their employer that they can’t do the job well at home, they are probably better off back in the office.

There was a poster on here who moaned at length during lockdown that her employer made her keep her camera on during meetings, then moaned when the lockdown ended and they were expected to go back to work. I hope they have found a new job now, but was saying the role was niche and it would be really difficult to find a new one. If that’s the case or if there aren’t many suitable jobs out there, you have to do what your employer tells you.

@PrincessPaws

people worked from home on zero notice in March 2020 when the company asked them to

I keep seeing people saying this, have people forgotten that companies didn't just randomly decide to get people working from home with no notice, the Government required it?

I'm certainly not anti wfh, I'd much prefer it, but can also see that relationships aren't as good, new starters are finding it harder in many respects, junior members of staff are finding it harder to learn from colleagues, more time is being wasted because all of these things now need to be scheduled in as meetings rather than chats just organically happening in the office etc. So can also see the argument for hybrid working

Of course there are always those that take the piss but that is a management issue and everyone shouldn't be penalised as a result

Regardless of your thoughts on WFH, it is still not sensible to move too far away from the office to attend regularly if required

Of course the government asked them to, but let’s place this in context.

Many people had been asking for WFH before the pandemic, which organisations generally had been loath to agree. When the pandemic hit, suddenly everyone had to work from home with zero notice, and it became very clear that, in fact, WFH was possible and feasible despite all that organisations had previously said.

Our pre-pandemic office working model of bringing everyone into an office, often in city centres, to work the same hours, is outdated and doesn’t work with people’s lives. It’s time organisations realised that effective management and delivery doesn’t depend on location.

Full disclosure - I haven’t moved, or got a dog. I am in the process of an autism diagnosis though, which explains why office working has always been hell on earth.

@MabelsApron Thank you for this. I’m autistic and have been out of the workplace mostly since my DC were born as I just didn’t have the capacity to be a mother AND a ft employee with a bum on a seat!

I’ve recently been looking for work and am ace-ing zoom interviews where it’s not “real” eye-contact. I’m animated and confident and I’ve been getting great feedback.

Stick me in a real interview/office and it’s like something from an Irvine Welsh book!

@LadyCatStark

It’s ridiculous! It was only meant to be temporary and now people are stamping their feet because they can’t have it all their own way! If WFH was so productive how come everything has a backlog?

We are much more productive at home (measurable, cases cleared per person per day) but we had a backlog because people were off sick with Covid. Plus more payouts due to customers dying.

We have to go back in part time because the company invested in a new office (in the middle of blooming nowhere) which officially opened mid Covid. It has to be seen to be used.