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AIBU?

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Original poster

To find this insulting to women

62 replies

groogrump · 27/01/2022 15:29

Name changed as I am a regular poster but wish to remain anonymous.
I have just qualified in the legal profession. I was scrolling Instagram and saw this post from an organisation that promotes diversity in law. Am I unreasonable to find this considerably insulting?! Whilst I'm sure there are some women who suffer with imposter syndrome the vast majority suffer with obstacles not made by them! To say otherwise is insulting, naive and victim blaming. The message has also been seemingly sponsored by a magic circle solicitors firm. I'm so annoyed as someone who tries to promote diversity in law myself to see something so ignorant.

To find this insulting to women
OP posts:
FFSFFSFFS · 27/01/2022 16:34

Of course its insulting.

Two key things - WHY do some women have imposter syndrome? Because of the culture including the culture in law which is sexist.

Secondly - my view is that rather than women changing to be over confident dickheads maybe men should try being a little bit less overconfident.

ie often imposter syndrome actually means behaving in a reasonable and rationale way

Ohyesiam · 27/01/2022 16:36

But it’s saying that is what imposter syndrome is. It’s not saying there is no glass ceiling. Women have internal and external barriers to success and IS is one of them.

Men have imposter syndrome too.

BowerOfBramble · 27/01/2022 16:38

It's incredibly crass, it implies that many female lawyers face imposter syndrome and therefore they can imagine it out of the way in order to soar higher in the profession.

No question of WHY a lot more women, people from immigrant or not white families and people from poorer backgrounds feel this way. It's not magically put upon is, it's a consequence of, oohhhhh I dunno literally centuries of systematic oppression and exclusion from careers.

Perhaps they think it's just coincidence that the young, privileged male lawyer who can look at a gallery of former judges and see thousands just like him often has more confidence than a young black man or an Asian woman who - if they did rise high in the profession - might be the first person like them ever to do so in this country.

LaChanticleer · 27/01/2022 16:40

Whilst I'm sure there are some women who suffer with imposter syndrome the vast majority suffer with obstacles not made by them

Totally agree @groogrump

The obstacles may be in some women's heads/thinking - but they are not created by the individuals concerned. The obstacles which make for 'imposter syndrome' are created by a society which tells girls and young women - from birth onwards - that they are (my off the top of my head list - there is more!):
less robust,
of less worth,
less strong,
more out of control in their emotions,
their voices are too soft
their voices are too high
their flesh is distracting to others
they are too thin
they are too fat
they are not important in & for themselves, only important in their relationships

I'm sure we could all add to this list.

It's not a made up thing by women. Imposter syndrome is a RESPONSE to anti-female and anti-femininity socialisation & conditioning we experience from birth.

Most of us manage to recognise our value, but we are rarely helped by the society around us.

OrangeCinnamonCroissant · 27/01/2022 16:44

There was a very good article about this recently in Harvard Business Review 'Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome' (Tulyshan and Burey) , Brene Brown interviewed theauthors on her podcast recently...

Would this slide have been produced if it wasn't an event aimed solely at women?

BowerOfBramble · 27/01/2022 16:50

It's not a made up thing by women. Imposter syndrome is a RESPONSE to anti-female and anti-femininity socialisation & conditioning we experience from birth.

This is beautifully put. Thank you.

SeasonFinale · 27/01/2022 16:57

@MerryPoppings

To me, the underlying message reads "stop complaining women, the barriers you complain about are your own fault for not being as assertive and confident as men." So next time you hear a woman complain about misogyny and patriarchy just remember she probably brought it on herself.
Whereas I take from it the opposite. I take don't let imposter syndrome prevent you from asking for that project, raise or promotion like many others before you have. Believe in you and go for it. It is actually opening the door for women to put themselves forward in situations where they may not have otherwise!!
hoorayandupsherises · 27/01/2022 17:00

@OrangeCinnamonCroissant

There was a very good article about this recently in Harvard Business Review 'Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome' (Tulyshan and Burey) , Brene Brown interviewed theauthors on her podcast recently...

Would this slide have been produced if it wasn't an event aimed solely at women?

I've been trying to find the article to post on here, thank you!
MimiDaisy11 · 27/01/2022 17:05

I think some women’s lack of confidence (which results in an imposter syndrome) comes from misogynistic experiences. It’s not just there by fluke. That time you’re mistaken for a secretary or someone assumes you’re in a more junior position than you are, even if these are done unintentionally, can plant seeds in your brain that you don’t belong.

Leafstamp · 27/01/2022 17:08

It's not ideal, I agree.

However, there are a great many things wrong with the legal profession when it comes to women, and this is not the biggest of them IMO.

I blame Stonewall Membership for a lot of the problems affecting women in law.

Leftbutcameback · 27/01/2022 17:08

It’s from A&O, about what I’d expect from a magic circle firm.

JuergenSchwarzwald · 27/01/2022 17:09

@Sparky888

I agree with you. I think most of the barriers are not out there by women!
I also agree. I think a lot of women do need more confidence in their abilities but the workplace is still largely run by men for men, especially in the legal profession. Men are allowed more cock-ups than women are, and women have to be better than men.

It is well worth reading this book: gillwhittycollins.com/why-men-win-at-work

JuergenSchwarzwald · 27/01/2022 17:11

I know the firm Allen & Overy by the way and they pay lip service to diversity. But their lawyers are mainly white (and Asian) and their support services are Asian and Black. And as for social mobility - well, most of their lawyers come from reasonably privileged backgrounds.

Eddielzzard · 27/01/2022 17:14

Very insulting

RobotValkyrie · 27/01/2022 17:16

Insulting victim blaming. YANBU.

Back in the real world, the main obstacle to most women's career is that it's almost impossible to make it work around family commitments.
All professional jobs are built around a "traditional male model" of career (full time, working stupid hours) where all these vital commitments are handled by somebody else.

My (futile?) attempts to strike a sensible work/life balance makes me an impostor, whether I feel like one (I don't) or not.

PurpleCarpets · 27/01/2022 17:17

I don't feel insulted. Just because they are highlighting one barrier faced by women, they are not denying others.

Tilltheend99 · 27/01/2022 17:21

Wow. If I were you, I’d contact the company involved and complain citing your own experiences. You are not wrong, that quote is both patronising and gaslighting.

MananaTomorrow · 27/01/2022 17:34

Imposter syndrome affects primarily women. It is well known that it stops women from progressing as well as they could be.

This doesn’t mean that they are not affected by other things and there aren’t other barriers that affect women specifically.

But having barriers that stop women from progressing doesn’t mean that there is nothing else that is a hindrance either.

YABU on that one.

TheOrigRights · 27/01/2022 17:35

@lljkk

As one of those who never had IS, I resent it being implied I must suffer from IS merely because I'm female ! Dreary annoying assumption.
The quote says "many aspiring female....". It does not say "all", so you don't need to feel resentful about it.
MananaTomorrow · 27/01/2022 17:37

Tbh I’m in a profession where you have mainly women.
We are all more or less self employed so have build out work around our life so don’t have the pressures mentioned above re having to fit a certain male standard.

And will myself and my colleagues are suffering from imposter syndrome.

I think it’s often coming from the fact we don’t have an over inflated ego and we are aware of what we don’t know (whereas men tend to think they know it all iyswim).
It’s not always a bad thing.

TheOrigRights · 27/01/2022 17:40

@Tilltheend99

Wow. If I were you, I’d contact the company involved and complain citing your own experiences. You are not wrong, that quote is both patronising and gaslighting.
Just because the quote doesn't mention any of the other barriers which women might face, doesn't mean this one is wrong.

It's not saying that the only thing standing in the way of women is IS and that only they can fix it.

It's saying that MANY women have IS and that often it's something they can do something about themselves.

Warblerinwinter · 27/01/2022 17:44

Imposter syndrome is not the cotton ceiling…that’s discrimination placed on women, imposter syndrome is the feeling you don’t deserve to be in room, in role etc and fills you with self doubt. I’ve known men to have it but much less common with women.

So yes, yabu …the comments are recognising that it comes from within
But there again why do some people feel this? Low confidence in there ability, not being listened to, not being given credit, not being recognised for what they can do…all sorts of things usually building up from early in career if not while still in education.
This is something that you can fix for yourself with help. It is about building confidence and recognising that other folks in the room aren’t somehow more deserving to be there than you, The glass ceiling you have no control over as it is other peoples prejudice

Warblerinwinter · 27/01/2022 17:45

Less common for men Than women I should say

BowerOfBramble · 27/01/2022 17:51

Overcoming imposter syndrome is usually about doing the hard grind of telling yourself "all those things other people have said about you and people like you are wrong" and making yourself believe it. Easy to say, not easy to do.

I've been lucky enough to have a supportive family, kind teachers, good friends and educational opportunities. But does the fact that people of my sex were literally banned from most professions until comparatively recently, and that no previous generation of my family has been educated past the basics or had the opportunities of education or wealth affect me? Damn right it does. When you know the people around you have generations of money and university and connections and no-one has ever assumed they can't do something just because of who they are.

Does it hold me back? Fuck knows, I hope not. I don't sit here shuddering going "oh no not little me". But does it limit my expectations, contacts, confidence in applications and at interview? Sure. And that's not something I've brought upon myself.

Kudupoo · 27/01/2022 18:24

But imposter syndrome is about our own conviction and confidence in a role - when you’re hired into it, and everyone else thinks you’re up for it, but you are the one questioning it - so I can see how that quote is relevant

I don't think that's always true. Some colleagues and others might doubt your ability or competence or be rude, and express that, and rather than thinking they're an arrogant arsehole or standing up for ourselves we take it to heart and doubt our ability.

I don't think imposter syndrome happens in a world where everyone is decent and has confidence in women and women just think negatively.

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