Means testing State Pension

[CuriousMariette]

Do you think the time has come for this to be introduced? I don’t think the current system is sustainable as many people are living too long. I know it’s not fair and would be political suicide but Pensioner’s didn’t even suffer a 80% furlough during lockdowns. I say this from a place of having “paid in” as people say for 30 years plus already and would likely not receive a State Pension in this scenario.

Remember SERPS in the 80s

It's always been implied you are paying in NI contributions to receive a pension even if it a total lie

Therefore I would like my pension at age 67

Can I also add the various tax NI changes over the years SERPs paying extra in to get more out.
Opting Out reducing NI to divert into a private pension. Many private pensions were under funded and the government decided opting out was a bad idea.

You cannot move the goal posts for people who've paid in.

Go back further and you have women who paid the 'wee stamp' who'd only get a pension based on their husbands contributions.
Verses women who paid the 'big stamp' so they'd get a pension in their own right.

I think they were officially known as A&B but still it's a contributions based on thinking you'd get something out the system later.

Yep mil made sure she paid extra NI to qualify for her own pension which she received at 60. She never worked full time after having dc anyway but still

@monfuseds

We will soon be back to 70s inflation and a whole new generation will find out what fun we had back then.

You're ignoring that current generations have the fun of soaring housing costs & wage stagnation.

And you think we didn't have that in the 70s? The 70s house prices did soar, they will seem low to you but have a look at what people were earning and what a 15% interest rate on your mortgage looked like. We also had 35% income tax rate as previously mentioned.

You can't pick and choose the bits that fit your story, either look at the whole picture or don't reference it. We didn't have free nursery places either so it was really hard to work and actually generate an income if you had young children. People now budget for a couple of expensive child care years between the end of maternity leave and 3, we didn't get any free educational places until a child was 5 or almost 5, varied by LA but where I lived you got a place at school for the term after the 5th birthday so some children missed a whole year at school.

The first maternity leave legislation in the UK was introduced in 1975, SMP wasn't introduced until 1987. When I had my first two children it was just accepted that when you lost your job when you had a baby, they might have you back but unemployment was so high that the chances of them keeping a job open for you was small for most women and of course women didn't have equal pay. In my first job I worked in an office of 12 people, six men and six women and the men all earned double what the women did.

Also look at unemployment rates.

Are things the same? No. Is everything better? No. Is everything harder? No.

Yes I think it should be means tested - my parents gave private pension income that puts them in the top tax bracket. They do not need the state pension and they joke about what fripperies they will spend it on. On the other hand there are so many pensioners who are scraping an existence as the state pension is their only source of income

@ancientgran I'll agree with most of what your saying but the first maternity legislation is about 140 years earlier under one of the first factories acts in 1830 something.
It's still illegal to employ a woman in a factory with in 4 weeks of giving birth. I think for other work it's 2 weeks but factories is 4 weeks dating back to 1830 something.

Trouble is the means testing will be ridiculously low as per usual penalising the thrifty low income pensioners with a modest property

@woodhill

Trouble is the means testing will be ridiculously low as per usual penalising the thrifty low income pensioners with a modest property

Yip, and then people will moan when the MPs who'll be means tested out of it decide to keep raising the age and reduce the increases it gets. Think what your asking for

It is means tested. Those that get the full state pension pay NI in for 35 years!

@camperqueen54

It is means tested. Those that get the full state pension pay NI in for 35 years!

Or have NI Credits, you get credits while claiming JSA, MA and if you are SAHP with child under 5. Might be others but those are ones I know about.

@DontBlameMe79

Many things are already means tested. Welfare, the dole. I can’t see why pensions and the NHS should be different, especially when we have an unsustainable funding model for both (which everyone agrees is the case). I never hear any solutions for that offered, just “I’ve paid in and deserve to get paid out”. A very selfish approach really.

As other posters have already pointed out to you, middle earners and above don't give a shit about means tested benefits being cut. Did they care about the temporary UC uplift being removed? No because it didn't affect them. Do middle earners care about the state of social housing? Nope because it doesn't affect them.

What you are arguing for is a pittance of a state pension being paid to those who can't afford private pension provision and that pittance not being paid until the age of 80. You also seem to be arguing for a very basic healthcare system for those that can't afford private provision. Who would care about waiting lists. Do you think the middle income voters, who wouldn't be entitled to free healthcare, would care if low earners were waiting 2 years for treatment. Nope, those middle income earners would be retiring in their 60s on a privately funded pension and paying for private healthcare - which they'd be paying for with the tax they'd saved on not funding a universal welfare system.

@SJFarter Well done you managed to put what I was trying to say into something more readable.

SJ - lots of putting words in my mouth there but that’s par for the course with this debate I find. Logic goes out the window. I’d make the means tested pension more generous, just going to fewer people. I’d have the health system higher quality but only free to those who are means tested. The “NHS” model of everything free won’t last and we need to face reality.

[quote Lockdownbear]@SJFarter Well done you managed to put what I was trying to say into something more readable.[/quote]
Those that argue against a universal welfare system should look at the US to see what that means.

Take healthcare and the state pension away from those who contribute enough to pay for their own and others services and we will have our very own Republican Party in a flash, one that most net contributors will vote for. That means low tax, low universal services. Individuals pay privately for what they need and want. If you can't afford to pay privately then tough.

You really are missing the point, you means test stuff the quality goes down, not up.

The people who vote and pay the heaviest tax will not vote for investment in something they don't benefit from.

@DontBlameMe79

SJ - lots of putting words in my mouth there but that’s par for the course with this debate I find. Logic goes out the window. I’d make the means tested pension more generous, just going to fewer people. I’d have the health system higher quality but only free to those who are means tested. The “NHS” model of everything free won’t last and we need to face reality.

And who is paying for this?

It won't be the people who are currently funding the universal system.

[quote Lockdownbear]@ancientgran I'll agree with most of what your saying but the first maternity legislation is about 140 years earlier under one of the first factories acts in 1830 something.
It's still illegal to employ a woman in a factory with in 4 weeks of giving birth. I think for other work it's 2 weeks but factories is 4 weeks dating back to 1830 something.[/quote]
Yes they couldn't work but did they have a guarantee of a job or any income? I was talking specifically about maternity leave legislation so we are both right in what we say but we are talking about different things. I can assure you we had no automatic rights to maternity leave, obviously some people will have had contractual rights.

The UK introduced its first maternity leave legislation through the Employment Protection Act 1975, which was extended through further legislation, such as The Employment Act 1980. From here www.striking-women.org/module/workplace-issues-past-and-present/maternity-and-paternity-leave-and-pay

I had a baby in January 1975 and missed out so I remember it well. I had six months off work and then had to find another job. It was very difficult to find work, part time work more so but a manager at my then husband's firm gave me a job where he really needed a fulltimer but I could only manage 30 hrs due to childcare. I'm not sure how we'd had survived without it.

Of course one of the things we did have was a maternity grant, it was £25 and it bought me a pram. A big pram was useful back then as we had no car so a pram that accommodated a baby, a toddler with a basket underneath for your shopping was very useful. Also with a second child I now got family allowance (like child benefit) but you didn't get it for the first child. I think I got under a pound for my 2nd child but it was increased either later that year or the next year and I think that was £1.50.

@Lockdownbear

You really are missing the point, you means test stuff the quality goes down, not up.

The people who vote and pay the heaviest tax will not vote for investment in something they don't benefit from.

Opposite is true. People don’t value what is “free”. Just look at the missed appointment problem in NHS. The UK model has become too entrenched and scaremongering that making reasonable changes will make us the US overnight are symptomatic of the problem - people just don’t think rationally. And it’s all about “I want my contributions back”. We need to be more progressive and direct limited resources where they are most needed and not to middle class welfare. Which is what the state pension is to middle/high income earners.

Logic goes out the window.

Given that you have no idea who is going to be finding your new means tested system, I'd agree 😂

We need to be more progressive

By progressive do you mean like the Scandinavian systems?

I'm not sure. Means testing it would have a massive disincentive effect on people saving for pensions, so might not end up saving much anyway. It is taxed, so in some sense high income pensioners receive less anyway.

If the maximum state pension was increased, and the withdrawal rate as you earn was sufficiently low, then I would support it.

Yes there was no right to any money, just not allowed to return to the factory. I guess for it to have been put into legislation so early there must have been mills or something with nursery provision that encouraged / forced women back to work. Grim days
But yes maternity pay / allowance would have been much later.

@SJFarter

Logic goes out the window.

Given that you have no idea who is going to be finding your new means tested system, I'd agree 😂

The higher earners will be funding it. That’s why it’s called progressive. Pretty logical.