Means testing State Pension

[CuriousMariette]

Do you think the time has come for this to be introduced? I don’t think the current system is sustainable as many people are living too long. I know it’s not fair and would be political suicide but Pensioner’s didn’t even suffer a 80% furlough during lockdowns. I say this from a place of having “paid in” as people say for 30 years plus already and would likely not receive a State Pension in this scenario.

@monfuseds I can't see any poster stating they think they've earned the right to not want to pay a penny towards care have they? Posters have said it's a bit shit to pay shit loads in ni and then get told 'actually you're not getting a state pension, that's only for those who've never contributed'.
What annoys me is the pious 'oh I'm so happy to not get a state pension, everyone should be like me, and if you don't accept this with glee you're obviously an evil person who wants the vulnerable to suffer' attitude.

@MichelleScarn I don’t think the state pension should be means tested but I think a possible fair solution would be changing the way we manage taxation so the wealthiest pensioners/those with unearned income have to pay a tax rate that incorporates what is now ring fenced as national insurance and the poorest working don’t have to start paying National Insurance at a low threshold (I can’t recall exact amount but it’s on income above ~£6.5k).

A mass social housing build would cost upfront but, unlike the billions of recently casually written off furlough fraud, longer term it would save hugely. It would also boost the construction industry.

I agree that housing costs have done extreme damage & we need a huge injection of housing but many people & older ones are more likely to own their home plus other homes likely won't vote for something that penalises them.

@Tealightsandd what's not true? that we don't have an ageing population? we do already.

[quote monfuseds]@Tealightsandd I don't understand what point you are trying to make[/quote]
The point is posters are complaining about people 'living too long'. Well, people can't have it both ways. Tell people off for smoking (a huge source of tax revenue) because 'it shortens your life - but then moan when people stop smoking and...live longer.

[quote monfuseds]@Tealightsandd what's not true? that we don't have an ageing population? we do already. [/quote]
But we won't in the future. Except the rich.

@godmum56 There is a very big difference between “killing” and not providing life-extending treatment. Of course I would never say anyone should be killed.

@MichelleScarn in my post I was referring to people I know as I said relatives & colleagues.

Posters have said it's a bit shit to pay shit loads in ni and then get told 'actually you're not getting a state pension, that's only for those who've never contributed'.

where have I said it's not shit?

What annoys me is the pious 'oh I'm so happy to not get a state pension, everyone should be like me, and if you don't accept this with glee you're obviously an evil person who wants the vulnerable to suffer' attitude.

Who has said this? I certainly haven't.

As I said I think it's shit that state pensions & the NHS won't exist in X number of years time. It's an absolute travesty but I still think it's inevitable.

campaigners and policymakers risk ignoring the real problem that our healthcare system faces: an ageing population

How about: "Our ageing population faces a systematically underfunded NHS, one they've paid into, that is being primed to be sold off to private (US) providers".

But we won't in the future. Except the rich.

So we will then...

@echt - yes but only the levy - I think that they could pay a surcharge/levy equal to NIC not just the extra 1.25%. It is crazy that my DPs have six figure pension income and pay less than many struggling families.

Tell people off for smoking (a huge source of tax revenue) because 'it shortens your life - but then moan when people stop smoking and...live longer.

You're that poster obsessed with this. Not one person has mentioned smoking on this thread.

@monfuseds

A mass social housing build would cost upfront but, unlike the billions of recently casually written off furlough fraud, longer term it would save hugely. It would also boost the construction industry.

I agree that housing costs have done extreme damage & we need a huge injection of housing but many people & older ones are more likely to own their home plus other homes likely won't vote for something that penalises them.

Many is not all. Talking of many, strangely enough many older people want their children and grandchildren to have affordable housing.

And, the fastest growing group of private renters is people aged 40+.

& the levy is only for those working

Many is not all. Talking of many, strangely enough many older people want their children and grandchildren to have affordable housing.

And yet the Tories are still in power 🤔

@echt

campaigners and policymakers risk ignoring the real problem that our healthcare system faces: an ageing population

How about: "Our ageing population faces a systematically underfunded NHS, one they've paid into, that is being primed to be sold off to private (US) providers".

That's definitely better worded.

[quote londonmummy1966]@echt - yes but only the levy - I think that they could pay a surcharge/levy equal to NIC not just the extra 1.25%. It is crazy that my DPs have six figure pension income and pay less than many struggling families.[/quote]
I see what you mean. I'm sure it will happen in time.

"Our ageing population faces a systematically underfunded NHS, one they've paid into, that is being primed to be sold off to private (US) providers"

If this is happening, who is responsible?

@londonmummy1966 i agree

@monfuseds

Tell people off for smoking (a huge source of tax revenue) because 'it shortens your life - but then moan when people stop smoking and...live longer.

You're that poster obsessed with this. Not one person has mentioned smoking on this thread.

Yes I mentioned it, because we can't have it both ways. Can't tell people to stop smoking because 'it will shorten your life', but then complain when they stop smoking and live longer.

@monfuseds

"Our ageing population faces a systematically underfunded NHS, one they've paid into, that is being primed to be sold off to private (US) providers"

If this is happening, who is responsible?

Successive governments over the last 30-40 years. Both Labour and Conservative (and Lib Dem).

@monfuseds

"Our ageing population faces a systematically underfunded NHS, one they've paid into, that is being primed to be sold off to private (US) providers"

If this is happening, who is responsible?

Also, rich people. Of all ages.

@whatkatydid2013

I know people get really shirty about idea of pensioners losing out but the government just introduced an additional 1.25% for employers & employees NI to help fund health & social care. Imagine these households

Household 1 is a single pensioner who rents a council flat with state plus small private pension. Their current income is ~ £10k/year

Household 2 is a single pensioner who owns their own 4 bed detached home outright & has savings amounting to ~£150k. Their overall pension is £40k/year but net income is more like £34.5k accounting for tax.

Household three is a single parent working 25 hours/week on minimum wage. They rent a 2 bed terrace for £600/month for themselves & 2 children. Income is ~12.5k/year but net income with universal credit/pension contributions/child benefit is around £25k

Household 4 are a couple with two children who earn around £90k between them. They own a 5 bedroom terrace with a mortgage and have ~£70k of savings. Their mortgage is £1,300/month. Their net income including child benefit less private pension contributions is ~£64k/year

If you had to pick out which two of these households ought to start paying a bit more towards health and social care which ones does it seem fairest to tax more?

That seems like House 2.

But House 4 would be House 2 in a few years owning their house outright. With House 3 becoming House 1 in the future still renting.

So if you take pension away from House 2 whats the incentive for House 4 to keep struggling along paying a heavy mortgage and trying to put away some savings for a rainy day?
Why don't they just drop some hours, earn a bit less and enjoy life?

House 3 at the moment are possibly looking at options to increase income, college courses etc with a view to creating a better life for themselves their children won't be dependents forever.

It might be a Scottish government fuckup but there is an issue at the moment with Doctors and the tax thresholds, some Docs are better off working part-time keeping themselves under the threshold or they end up working extra hours for nothing.

You can't tax people to the hilt and then expect them to keep working.
People will leave or go part-time. Dispose of money and assets by passing it to the next generation.

You make the system too difficult People will find and expose the loopholes.

those taxpayers paying for the current pensioners pensions won’t get pensions themselves or will get them much later than those that they have paid for

I've paid in for over 50 years. Still won't get full state pension till I'm 68.
I was promised it at 60 but hey, hang on, they just changed the rules

Can't tell people to stop smoking because 'it will shorten your life', but then complain when they stop smoking and live longer.

no one mentioned smoking on this thread though or saying old people should take it up to die sooner