Means testing State Pension

[CuriousMariette]

Do you think the time has come for this to be introduced? I don’t think the current system is sustainable as many people are living too long. I know it’s not fair and would be political suicide but Pensioner’s didn’t even suffer a 80% furlough during lockdowns. I say this from a place of having “paid in” as people say for 30 years plus already and would likely not receive a State Pension in this scenario.

If you moved NI out of been a separate charge & handled it with tax (applying the same thresholds) then the people with the smallest earnings (including pensioners on really low incomes) would see no change or a decrease in tax overall and those with largest unearned/pension incomes would see the biggest change. You could put in plans now to make changes over next 20-30 years to slowly move away from ring fenced NI to give people a chance to plan for it

And the answer is...there isn't one; things will be/are getting increasingly tough for nearly all of us.

The last thing any of us should be doing is 'turning on' others.

Best see ourselves and our nearest and dearest are getting through rather than wasting our energy trying to reduce what others might get.

Yes, I think a young person’s life is more important than an 89 year old’s

You need to be really careful where you go with that @Fr0thandBubble. It’s a slippery slope. Once you start weighing the value of lives, where do you stop? When my parents were 89 their lives were of massive importance to me. Your child means nothing to me, they mean everything to you.

[quote monfuseds]@whatkatydid2013 the argument will be household 2 has been prudent & not wasted money on coffees 😆[/quote]
@monfuseds - Household 2 is basically my FIL. My parents are similar. They all think it’s stupid they don’t pay more tax & don’t have to pay the new levy. I tend to agree with them. We will likely be in a similar position to them when we retire and if more money needs to be found (even if it doesn’t and we just want to be more equitable) then we can pay more and so can they a hell of a lot more easily than someone grafting away on minimum wage raising a family. I roll my eyes a great deal at the comments on working hard & being deserving etc. I mean I do work hard but I’m darn sure I haven’t worked any harder or have any more stress than a career has had in the past couple of years and I earn a massive amount more money while working for what is likely a much more understanding employer with great sick leave, maternity leave, pension etc. I wish people could accept that working hard isn’t the only factor in achieving higher earnings.

Can I just clarify I meant many people are now living too long for the current system to be sustainable. At no point did I say living longer was a bad thing - it’s a great thing - but brings issues we can’t ignore. I apologise to anyone I unintentionally offended I could have structured that sentence much better.

But anyway don't worry OP.

More people are for now living longer...after dutifully doing what they were told by anti smoking crusaders, eg. not smoking because 'it shortens your life". And just like that - massive loss of tax revenue.

But, it won't go on. Life expectancy even before the pandemic had stagnated. Poverty and lifelong stress is a deadlier (and more unpleasant) killer than smoking.

Add in Long Covid - the organ and other damage it can cause, long term poorer health and the growing numbers hit by the public health housing and homelessness emergency - and in the future, life expectancy will be falling (except for the rich - of all ages).

Many will die without ever having a pension. We're going backwards.

And on the slippery slope of seeing human beings only value in how much money they can make (for somebody else) and a race to the bottom....after the pensioners, who next? Obviously the disabled. It's already been happening to them. It was so bad that some years ago the United Nations condemned how the UK was treating disabled people.

Who next? Refugees? Single mums.

First they came....

Meanwhile the billionaires got richer over the last two years. The money's there somewhere.

@Fr0thandBubble
"godmum56
@Fr0thandBubblethan
"Honestly I think the issue is that we try far too hard to keep people alive for as long as possible in this country. I’d happily pay more tax to fund better education for children, better services for disabled children (being a parent of one, I know just how dire the state provision is), generally better provision for children, etc. But taxpayers spending hundreds of thousands eking out the age of people in their 80s and 90s, I’ve got no interest in."

go on then, who shall we kill and how shall we kill them? I have worked in the NHS and by and large, its my experience that the older population who are receiving a high level of care are given only treatments to keep them comfortable because that is what is best for them....or should we leave them in pain and fighting for breath?"

"I’m not talking about killing anyone. If you’re old and you can afford your own healthcare, crack on. If you can’t, I don’t think the taxpayer should be paying to eke out every last year of life of someone in their 80s/90s. As I said before, I’d rather the money I pay in tax goes on provision for children. And these are choices we have to make, because we have the means of keeping people alive for a long time, at vast expense, but that needs to be paid for somehow, and there is a great many more people taking out of the pot than putting into it."

well actually you are talking about killing people if you are suggesting, as you seem to be, no NHS care for people over 80? As I said in my original post, when people get seriously frail and unwell at any age then health care in the NHS is limited to what is in their best interests....no one strives "officiously to keep alive" unless circumstances are very unusual...wasn't it one of the big issues during the early stages of covid that people from care homes were not given intubated oxygen? My experience in care of older people in the NHS is that realtives fight for their loved ones to be given more aggressive life prolongation treatments but that this is usually not done because it amounts to cruelty to the patient. I have no idea where you got the idea that the life of older frail people is "eked out" at vast expense by the NHS? Yes some peoples lives do carry on beyond the point where they are cognitively aware or physically able in any real sense but what should we do with these people who won't die?
I used to work with older poeple who had been badly affected by stroke. Sometimes relatives, loving distressed people, would ask why their loved one hadn't been allowed to die. the answer was always the same and absolutely true: that while the person had been kept comfortable, nothing had been done to prolong their life, the fact was that they hadn't died. So again i ask, who should die and how shall we kill them?

No. I've paid into it since I was 16, I'm entitled to it thanks. Sorry but just.. no.

@whatkatydid2013 I have lots of similar people in family as colleagues however they buy into the "I've earned it" narrative.

we need to increase taxation

www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2017/08/smoking-and-drinking-save-public-purse-money

@Tealightsandd I don't understand what point you are trying to make

There was an interesting report the other day. A major issue is not longer life expectancy. It's that growing numbers of people are becoming too unwell to work years before retirement age (this will worsen with Long Covid).

Dealing with the public health housing and homelessness emergency would significantly improve the situation.

The poverty, destination, and stress associated with insecure or no housing is a major cause of ill health.

It also, whilst we're talking of tax money, is hugely costly to the taxpayer. Billions and billions and billions.

Billions to house homeless families and vulnerable individuals in expensive temporary accommodation. Billions in housing benefits to pay high private rents. And billions and billions on the knock on impact of the housing emergency - NHS (including mental health), social services, criminal justice system, and more.

A mass social housing build would cost upfront but, unlike the billions of recently casually written off furlough fraud, longer term it would save hugely. It would also boost the construction industry.

It's the moral thing to do - but also financially prudent for the national economy.

[quote monfuseds]@whatkatydid2013 I have lots of similar people in family as colleagues however they buy into the "I've earned it" narrative. [/quote]
Do you think they haven't 'earned it' all those saying how happy and pleased they'd be not to accept a state pension, how much charity giving do you do now?
For those who think there should be a cut off for income for state pension, do you not think that's a bit arrogant to state what should be done with others income?

although your link highlights the point I made re financial impact of the changing demographics

"campaigners and policymakers risk ignoring the real problem that our healthcare system faces: an ageing population.”"

So it’s a big ship
To turn around

I've not heard that phrase before, but it's spot on here.

I hope I get chance to use it in the future.

No but I think that there should be an income surcharge on higher rate pensioners that is at a similar level to NI contributions - to help fund the NHS as their age group are the ones that cost it the most and I don't see why the better off amongst them can't cough up given the rest of us will have to pay extra now.

First they came for the elderly.
Then they came for the disabled.
Next they came for the refugees.
Then they came for the single mums.
By the time they came for me, there was nobody left to speak out for me...

Race to the bottom and Othering.

Meanwhile the billionaires get richer.

@MichelleScarn They've benefited from hugely inflated property gains, cheap lending to buy btls, good private pensions etc. I don't think they've earned the right to not want to pay a penny towards care & wrap everything up in trusts to limit tax grabs & sit in million pound plus homes moaning that A&E is too busy & too many people arriving on boats are milking the system.

I would be very unhappy to not receive a state pension that doesn't mean logically I can't see how the system is unsustainable.

Meanwhile the billionaires get richer

well that's not going to change

OP really does have a point though - it is true that we have 'expectations' of keeping ourselves 'alive for as long as possible, no matter what the cost.

My 74 year old Mum had Level 4 Cancer but rather than helping her to accept her final stages in the life cycle, many thousands of £s were wasted in the painful and unnecessary chemo that killed her before the cancer did.

@londonmummy1966

No but I think that there should be an income surcharge on higher rate pensioners that is at a similar level to NI contributions - to help fund the NHS as their age group are the ones that cost it the most and I don't see why the better off amongst them can't cough up given the rest of us will have to pay extra now.

Higher paid pensioners will pay the levy from 2023 ( 2, second paragraph)

www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-and-social-care-levy/health-and-social-care-levy

Higher-paid pensioners are already taxed at the same rate as the general population.

• First they came for the elderly. Then they came for the disabled. Next they came for the refugees. Then they came for the single mums. By the time they came for me, there was nobody left to speak out for me...*

slightly dramatic plus they came for the refugees, disabled & single mums long ago. I think older wealthier people should contribute to the h&s levy, that's not coming for the elderly.

@monfuseds

I think we should just move NI into income tax so people don’t have this misconception it’s some sort of fund.

good point, I didn't realise so many see it as a personal pot.

I do agree there, the tax system could do with being simplified. Another one that should be rolled into general taxation is TV licence. Many argue against TV licence but BBC and Bitesize came into its own during lockdown. Nobody can guarantee us that we'll never have another reason to close schools.

I bet many people don't realise this Each month Companies calculate the NI due to be paid, then deducts any SSP, Mat Pay or Paternity pay they've had to pay out and then pays the balance to IR.

The benefits to keeping NI separate are they calculate the number of payments made for certain benefits like the contributions based element of Job Seekers Allowance, Maternity Allowance for those who've moved jobs and not entitled to SMP.
Pension if you have x years of NI payments you get the 'full' pension. Although some people may have had periods of being a SAHM where you still get you NI credits if you have a child under 5.
Not sure if there are any other times when you get NI credits when you aren't paying it.

But I'm sure they could still simplify the system making it easier for small employers too.

@monfuseds

although your link highlights the point I made re financial impact of the changing demographics

"campaigners and policymakers risk ignoring the real problem that our healthcare system faces: an ageing population.”"

Well that's not true is it.

Covid is being allowed to kill loads and loads off (in the UK).

And Long Covid, plus growing poverty, will see to it that life expectancy will continue to stagnate and then fall.

We're going back to the 19th century. If you're not rich, literally work until you drop.

Next up, workhouse revival.