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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What makes you working class?

270 replies

Greenbluestar · 22/01/2022 01:20

I noticed the thread on what makes you middle class. So how about what makes you working class? I’ll go first..

  • achievement achieved through merit and seldom by privilege
  • keen to work and hard working

Any more?

OP posts:
thepeopleversuswork · 23/01/2022 18:30

@FindingMeno

I don't believe your family circumstances necessarily mean you're tied to that class because of upward/ downward mobility. It's your current circumstances. So if you are from a working class family but have a degree and own your own home you have become middle class. The glaring exception to this is when you are in working class circumstances but are expecting a large inheritance from middle class parents.
I agree, and I'll probably get shot down for this but I find it irritating that people expect to be able to keep the "working class" moniker over multiple generations when they clearly have moved past it.

For example I have a good friend who came from an undeniably working class background (dad worked in a factory, mum was a SAHM). She has done incredibly well for herself, got a very good degree and is now a corporate lawyer earning well into six figures, married to another corporate lawyer, house in an expensive part of London.

Yet she still insists that not only she but her four year old son are working class just because of her background.

I've said to her that if it works that way around why can't I be described as "working class"? I came from a very MC background, comfortably off, dad was university educated, private school etc. But am now a single mother and while I earn OK money I really really need to work and can't afford to take my foot off the pedal.

But she says that working class identity is something which travels down the generations like a stick of rock and you can't change or lose it. I just don't buy that argument. I can see how she can continue to feel she has working class roots, for sure. But if you took that argument to its logical extreme most of the people in this country would be servile peasants. People's circumstances evolve, like it or not, and its not fixed in stone. And nowadays things are far more fluid than they were 40 or 50 years ago.

MadameHeisenberg · 23/01/2022 18:47

@thepeopleversuswork

I’ll tell you why - it’s because (some) MC people tell you so. Some people don’t like to miss an opportunity to put you in your place.

I’m like your friend, I’m a scientific director in big pharma in Switzerland. I have a high salary, but I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been told overtly or covertly, that I’m still WC.

I worked in consultancy for a bit after my PG degree. My boss was a public schoolboy who got the job through connections rather than merit (and was fucking useless). I objected to him making me look useless though and challenged him one day. He told me ‘you might have a PhD, but never forget, you’ll always be just a girl from Birmingham’.

It’s less frequent now I’m abroad but when I do encounter it, it’s undoubtedly from other Brits. ‘Haven’t lost the accent then’ and other such little digs. ‘Amazing how well you can ski, considering’ etc.

So that’s why. If I ID as MC I’m soon reminded why I can’t possibly be. Fine. So I’m WC then. Suits me.

thepeopleversuswork · 23/01/2022 18:56

@MadameHeisenberg

I can see why that would be highly annoying and I can totally understand your reaction. But these people are arseholes and they are putting you down because they clearly are threatened by the fact you got there on merit and they didn't.

But they're wrong -- and respectfully, you're wrong. You're understandably chippy about this and I can see why you want to wear it as a badge of honour. But you are not working class by any stretch of the imagination. You may come from a working class background and have some class markers which dickheads use to patronise you. But you can't have PhD, a high white collar salary and a director role and still be working class.

MadameHeisenberg · 23/01/2022 20:39

@thepeopleversuswork

I agree. Objectively, of course I am MC. But the insidious idea that people are born into a class means that in reality, those like me don’t fit in anywhere.

You can work hard, achieve great things, be successful, become wealthy, but the ‘rules’ of the game mean you can never truly move ‘up’. You will never be accepted, you’ll always be looked down on as ‘new money’.

Meanwhile, others who have never done a day’s work in their lives but have inherited wealth and status, are lauded and held up as superior. It’s nauseating, really. One of the reasons I left the UK and married a foreigner. It’s easier here, I’m accepted for who I am, not accused of having ideas above my station or of passing myself off as struggling WC when I’m anything but.

MrsGaskthrill · 23/01/2022 20:57

However much we want to think the class system has gone away/ become less important it really hasn’t gone anywhere and I think it’s important to acknowledge that eg. posh idiots from Eton still run our country and they do it for their and their chums’ benefits. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and social mobility is getting harder.

At my DC’s state primary we have an unusual situation where nearly every single property in the catchment is a three bed house with a long garden. So there’s a pretty level playing field financially. It’s an area an estate agent described as ‘working class done good’ and it’s about 50/50 working class and middle class. What’s really notable here is how tribal and immovable those class boundaries are. The working class families (plumbers, builders etc) tend to have more expendable income and it’s more likely the wife doesn’t need to work. Culturally there is such a huge gulf I don’t know where to start. The children quickly sorted themselves into working and middle class friendship groups based on familiar accents and shared cultural perspectives I think and the parents followed suit so there are 2 distinct groups in the playground. The middle class children and their mums and dads are typically scruffier and have scruffier homes, the working class children and their homes are smart and clean and their parents are more likely to wear heels and makeup on the school run. I could go on with the generalisations, they are very pronounced and rarely do exceptions occur!

QueBarbaridad · 23/01/2022 21:01

I think the working class tend to invest more in ‘social capital’ because they don’t have financial capital. I mean there’s more pressure to be sociable and to help your family. I don’t agree the working class are less inclined to participate or volunteer, but there can be a certain cynicism and disaffection in some working class people: muttering darkly about ‘the powers that be’ for example.

CowboyJo · 23/01/2022 21:04

I think you know you're working class when you appreciate the value of money, and never expect it to be splashed out on you for gifts.

My children never ask for Christmas or birthday presents, or make lists for Santa - they're always grateful for whatever they're given. My 3-year-old's favourite gift last Christmas was a giraffe teddy we bought from the charity shop for a couple of quid!

Meanwhile my sister is quite well-off thanks to marrying a man who was born into money, and her sons are right greedy little beggars who always moan that they didn't get X or Y for Christmas... when they get tons of expensive designer clothes and gadgets etc.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 23/01/2022 21:07

@MadameHeisenberg

I agree. Objectively, of course I am MC. But the insidious idea that people are born into a class means that in reality, those like me don’t fit in anywhere.

You know what? That's fine by me. I'm in a similar position to yours: I hail from a northern city originally, parents were in finance (NOT high end) and retail, we lived in a tiny house and were on free school dinners more than one during our childhood. Holidays, when we had them, were to the local coast. I also happen to be well-spoken with a fairly neutral accent and this, I know, has a huge effect on the way people are viewed, judged and treated.

I have a PhD and am a fairly senior academic. UK HE is a sector where social hierarchies are seriously pervasive, achievement isn't necessarily based on merit, and glass ceilings based upon gendered or 'class' expectations are everywhere. It's possible, if you come from the right social background, to fail upwards no matter how much of a mess you leave behind you in your (invariably short-lived) senior faculty position.

This British fixation on class depresses me no end. I'd like to say I'm blind to it, but in this society that's pretty much impossible. I've lived overseas (US) and have Scandinavian relatives still: and it IS different. All countries have varying and different class expectations and definitions; in the UK, these are particularly all-pervasive (despite people telling you they only ever see the fixation on Mumset).

I don't know whether I'm still WC or been 'privileged' enough to be elevated to the revered MC. Like you, I probably fit nowhere, and AFAIC that's fine. I can't control how others see me and couldn't care less either way. But as a peculiarly British obsession I do find it depressing at times. I half-envy you your new Swiss life (but even though I ride and surf, I can't ski ...)

MadameHeisenberg · 24/01/2022 07:30

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I agree, it’s depressing. It’s the major thing I dislike about the UK.

Can I ask what branch of academia you’re in? I was/am in natural sciences/chemistry and I personally found that, while there were certainly issues with gender (men favoured), I didn’t see so much around class. In fact, many of my peers also came from WC backgrounds. Data quality and intellect generally won out. That said I didn’t stay in academia after a couple of short post-doc positions - maybe it was there and I just didn’t stick around long enough to see it.

OhWhyNot · 24/01/2022 07:57

Growing up with the brightest if net curtains. So bright they hurt your eyes Grin and this was important

When I went to my friends house (mc) I can remember thinking are they not worried people can see in

I think most wc who have made money don’t seem to have the same handwringing (often patronising) anguish over the struggles of the working class. And there is no hiding wealth (why would you want your children to dress in obvious hand me downs and look scruffy it’s utterly bizarre)

catfunk · 24/01/2022 08:11

Corned beef

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 24/01/2022 10:07

[quote MadameHeisenberg]@MarieIVanArkleStinks

I agree, it’s depressing. It’s the major thing I dislike about the UK.

Can I ask what branch of academia you’re in? I was/am in natural sciences/chemistry and I personally found that, while there were certainly issues with gender (men favoured), I didn’t see so much around class. In fact, many of my peers also came from WC backgrounds. Data quality and intellect generally won out. That said I didn’t stay in academia after a couple of short post-doc positions - maybe it was there and I just didn’t stick around long enough to see it.[/quote]
I'm in the Humanities. Quality of research will always be important, but I've lost count of the number of conferences I've attended and if asked to pick out a paper delivered by an Oxbridge delegate or one from a post-92 university, it wouldn't necessarily be possible to tell the difference. In an ideal world, academics should really be as good as their last book, paper, major research/impact case study project, or grant capture.

It doesn't necessarily work like that. When applying for jobs, where you got your degree matters and a solid, middle of the road 1920s university (my background) won't cut you as much kudos as a Russell Group degree. I once went after a post at an 'old new' university of the York/Warwick/Durham school. At that time, the only suffixes on their staff list were Oxon, Cantab, interspersed with a few Russell Group names and American Ivy League institutions. And that was all.

My name is well-known in my field. I net a lot of research income, regularly turn out 3 -4 research, and have a niche in which mine - and two or three colleagues - are the first names people come to when wanting invited presentations, PhD examination etc., in a specific research area. Also, in the Humanities professorial chairs tend to be awarded later in our careers than tends to happen in the physical sciences.

It's annoying. Good research should speak for itself, and should stand or fall by its own merit.

Ahhhh, that felt cathartic!

BadLad · 24/01/2022 10:09

I put HP Sauce on my toast this morning.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 24/01/2022 10:13

@BadLad

I put HP Sauce on my toast this morning.
Ha! I recognise this quote. 'I have worked and fought and slaved to join the middle classes, Adrian, and now that I'm here I don't want my son admiring proletariats and revolutionaries!'

Brilliant.

BadLad · 24/01/2022 10:21

Great spot, @MarieIVanArkleStinks

Keke94LND · 24/01/2022 10:52

@dipdye

You have, at some point in your life, stepped foot in a council house
Lots of people go into council houses who aren't necessarily working class, and lots of working class people don't live in council houses
DesignforLife · 24/01/2022 13:05

Such an interesting thread. I’m another one of those class-adrift people who have almost moved up but not quite.

A clear class marker was indicated to me recently. I was out with my mum, sister and nieces in the area where I grew up (I’ve moved away and come back and the area has become hugely gentrified in the last 10 year with a real middle-class, arty-creative type community now. Many of my colleagues live there and think I must have had the most amazing childhood in that area – the reality was that it was a dump with a bad reputation back then). There are two children’s playgrounds in the area. One which has been there since I was a child (I’m 45) and has faded brightly painted metal slides and swings on concrete. Always groups of teenagers hanging out in the corner and the actual equipment doesn’t seem to have been updated since the 80s. About 5 mins from this is a new park, installed in the last 15 years. The play equipment is wooden and comprises rope bridges, pirate ships and tunnels through grassy mounds. The main surface is bark. The DNs wanted to play and so DM and DS headed towards park 1. I suggested that the other one is much nicer but they told me that park 2 is not for the likes of us. It’s where all the posh folk go with their children called Tarquin. I was genuinely stunned that the class system could be so well and alive that it has infiltrated children’s playgrounds, putting kids firmly in their place from an early age. Of course it didn’t help when we later walked past park 2 only to see no less than three families I knew. One of which, when we stopped to chat, wrinkled her nose when I said the DNs had already had a play in the other park “Oh, we never go there” she said.

I know my family struggle with me and I hate to admit how much I struggle with them. This doesn’t mean I don’t love them to bits but I’ve seen DM and DS, mimic and mock the way I speak. They think I’m trying to be posh but the truth is that I’m not trying to be anything. I just am. And what I am is too posh/MC for my family and too WC for work colleagues. It has been made clear to me in professional circles that I’m not one of them, that I betray myself every time I open my mouth. I have, however, clearly picked up a wider vocabulary and a bit of a different dialect over the years. My hobbies, interests and the way I live my life also comes in for scrutiny by my family – they scoff at my visits to museums and galleries and I feel I can never share with them the really interesting things I’ve seen, nor talk about things that are on my mind, so our interactions become superficial.

I don’t even know if I can define my family’s class, tbh. People use lack of holiday abroad as an indication of being WC but we had loads of those. Our fortnight in the sun was as important to mum and dad as basic food and water. Perhaps more so. Dad was a delivery driver for a factory and mum worked p/t in a supermarket. Clothes, toys etc were about 70% hand me downs, not just within the family but from neighbours. A large percentage of the rest came from jumble sales. Money always seemed to be tight (but perhaps wouldn’t have been if we didn’t have those holiday) and a source of stress. Our home was immaculate on the surface but falling apart if you looked too closely. We had an ancient heating system which barely worked – I remember a teenage classmate asking my mum innocently why we didn’t just upgrade to a proper boiler as it all seemed so much hassle. Mum was furious and didn’t allow me to bring friends home again. Dad spent most of his time at the social club, if not working, and would usually come home blind drunk but often with a VCR, TV, microwave or similar which had fallen off the back of a lorry. Most of our stuff came from dad’s connections with petty criminals. We had a succession of cars – all stolen – which we drove for a while then dumped when they got too hot. There were no books in the house and any form of learning for enjoyment was at best an alien concept and at worse a nonsense. My parents worshipped Thatcher.

Yet, I excelled at school and ended up in top streamed classes which is why most of my friends came from very different upbringings. Before I was old enough to fully understand and articulate the differences, I recall being in a modern studies lesson where we were asked to put our hands up to identify with being UC, WC or WC (why would you do this to kids?). I genuinely didn’t know but some of the pointers on the blackboard mentioned holidays abroad and doing well at school, plus all my friends chose MC to I joined them in putting up my hand. The teacher singled me out, asking if I was sure - cue laughter from the rest of the class. Afterwards, at break, some of those friends told me I had been wrong and proceeded to tear apart my identity, telling me I wasn’t like them because their clothes were new whereas mine were hand me downs, their parents wore suits to work, I said things like “I seen” and “I done” rather than “I saw” and “I did”. Nobody had ever told me this was wrong. I still feel the burning shame of that day. Not because I was “outed” as WC and not because I was ashamed to be WC but because I realised that the friends whom I had seen as equals, due to the parity of our academic results, all saw me as different and somehow worse than them.

That BBC calculator has me as Established Middle Class but I agree with others that the real indicator is around safety nets. A few years back, DH and I were in a situation where we needed £20k. The amount of friends who told us to “just” take it out our savings, it’s not that much, was unbelievable. This then led to increasingly embarrassing situations where we had to admit that we didn’t have £20k in savings, to which they reacted in horror, assuming we had frittered away money and we then had to explain we’ve never had that money, which they followed up by questioning the fact that we’ve both lost grandparents so surely we have inheritance?! I’m proud of all I have worked for and all I have achieved but I know that my lifestyle and my acceptance into social circles sits on a knife edge and could be lost due to the lack of safety net. There have been a few redundancy round in my work over the years and I have one close co-worker who, every time, makes a joke about getting her dad primed just in case he needs to support her for a bit. Another friend’s parents bought her house for her as they didn’t want to see her “saddled with a mortgage”. Another friend once says she never relies on parental hand-outs now she’s an adult but then paused and said “well, they did buy me my car – but that doesn’t count because all parents give their kids a few large monetary gifts in their lifetime”. I’ve heard other friends happily claim they have worked for everything they own but I know for a fact that their parent paid for lavish weddings, helped furnish their homes, regularly buy gifts, clothes and toys for their DC. All of these things are taken for granted and there are a huge amount of people out there who will be unable to comprehend the concept of earning every single penny you spend and not expecting so much as a £10 contribution from family. In fact, in my case, I give my parent financial assistance now. And, of course, the more of your own earnings you use, the less you have to save…

Lurkerlot · 24/01/2022 13:29

The only thing I can do to pay for living is to exchange my work. That is what makes me working class.

DesignforLife · 24/01/2022 13:37

Another WC marker is funerals and extended families. My mum and dad had 5 and 9 siblings respectively. That's a lot of aunties and uncles. Then there were close family friends also given the title of Auntie. We all lived in relative proximity and saw each other all the time. Now that my parents generation is older and dying off, I've had issues getting time off work for funerals. "It was only an aunt, not a close relative", or "Can you take an hour or two for the service and then be back?" or "How can you possibly be so close to so many aunties and uncles?" I've had a very MC-born and bred line manager tell me with pride that her family wouldn't dream of asking her to disrupt work to attend a funeral as they know her career is very important.

From my point of view though, I am very well aware that failure to attend and properly send off each and every auntie is akin to saying I have zero respect for the deceased nor for the rest of the family. The idea that work could be more important and not easily dropped for the day is beyond repugnant and if were to do this I'd be pretty much cutting myself off from the family forever.

MangosteenSoda · 24/01/2022 14:04

My grandparents on both sides were firmly working class. Factory jobs and rented or council homes. They did all end up having financially comfortable retirements though.

Super clean (and very warm!) homes, would do anything for family, knew everyone in the community.

My parents own their own home, sent me to private school and uni and also have a comfortable retirement. Also have a super clean and tidy house, although not stifling hot. Still know everyone and everyone else’s business.

I have more of a middle class job and own my home (definitely not as tidy as my parents or grandparents Grin) and am more financially comfortable than they were at the same age as I am now, so probably live a more middle class lifestyle. I’m definitely not at all interested in the comings and goings of the neighbours Grin. If I had to choose though, I’d say working class because I feel the same as I always have and don’t think changing lifestyles change something that feels somehow intrinsic to me and something I view positively.

I lived abroad for years though, so there’s a part of me that looks at the class system from the outside now and finds it very silly. Once you have met enough people, it becomes clear that the whole concept of actually having class has nothing to do with money.

QueBarbaridad · 24/01/2022 14:17

@DesignforLife
Yes, I understand about funerals. I remember my parents rowing about an aunt’s funeral because my mum felt you don’t just need to go you have to take your spouse. It fits with the importance of family and friends. The working class invest in them because they don’t have a financial safety net or money to invest to create one.

DoncasterHombre · 24/01/2022 14:37

You can tell what class somebody is by asking them if they bother to get out of the bath to have a wee or not. I often ask this first on meeting a new person to establish their breeding.

A posho will say "of course, I wouldn't ruin my weekly bath after spending all that money on heating the water" and a working class person will say (yes, you tramp, why would I ruin the highlight of my day by wallowing in my own piss"?

The fun pieople giggle and say "no" . . . . .

CowboyJo · 24/01/2022 14:49

@DoncasterHombre

You can tell what class somebody is by asking them if they bother to get out of the bath to have a wee or not. I often ask this first on meeting a new person to establish their breeding.

A posho will say "of course, I wouldn't ruin my weekly bath after spending all that money on heating the water" and a working class person will say (yes, you tramp, why would I ruin the highlight of my day by wallowing in my own piss"?

The fun pieople giggle and say "no" . . . . .

I thought it'd e the opposite surely! Shock Hmm
QueBarbaridad · 24/01/2022 14:51

An interesting theory @DoncasterHombre

Unfortunately, a weekly bath vastly overestimates the time available to busy professional people!

QueBarbaridad · 24/01/2022 14:53

How do you mean @CowboyJo? Like capitalism being a system where man exploits man and communism the reverse?