To not want my friend as a colleague?

[TupperwareThief]

To put this question into context a bit, i’ll tell you my recent career history. At the beginning of 2019 I was in a job I loved, but due to brexit affecting the company’s funding, my contract was not renewed. I took a maternity cover position in another department who organise large events as a temporary solution: however, when COVID19 struck it was left to me, someone with zero experience, to move the events online in a short space of time with no training, experience or support, which was so stressful I was in tears daily. By the time the person I was covering came back, I was totally burned out. I then took what I thought would be a good permanent role; however, it turned out to be completely misadvertised (it was not remote working as advertised, it involved working on a construction site, and my boss was, to put it plainly, an asshole - who, amongst other things, put my physical safety at risk numerous times - leading me to quit after only 6 months, which is something i’ve never done before).

But then, something amazing happened. Someone sent me an advert for the job of my dreams saying ‘you’d be perfect for this’. And I got the job! It was working at a university close to my friends and partner and my boss is totally supportive and a good leader. I’ve worked there since June 2021.

We are a small team of 3 core members: as well as my boss, I have a colleague who does all the admin and finance side of things - we’ll call her Tracy. Tracy hates her job, and working in the university sector, and doesn’t care who knows it. She’s deeply unprofessional and lazy (spends a lot of her day watching streaming tv in the office) and I actually have strong suspicions she is sleeping with a student. She walked out of a staff meeting in December, handed in her 3 months’ notice along with a sick note, and has been on rolling sick ever since. I do not think she will come back. I’m sort of relieved to see the back of her, although it has meant I have to cover both our full time jobs, which is a stress i could do without (especially because i have no training in admin/finance).

Of course, this means that Tracy’s job will soon be advertised. Tracy’s job pays surprisingly well, far more than the average for a junior admin role, despite not requiring many prerequisites (no degree or special certifications etc). The reason for this is we need a specific type of very energetic, organised and outgoing person in the role as it involves making connections with business partners etc.

I told a friend, we’ll call her Kelly, about all of this. Kelly suddenly springs up and says ‘I’d be interested in applying to that - you’ll help me get the job, right?’

I know this sounds horrible, but I really don’t want Kelly in this job. She is not the right person for it and after all of the stress and drama in my worklife in the last few years, I just want a safe, stable pair of hands that I can rely on. I know full well the only thing that Kelly cares about in this job is the good salary: when I saw her at the weekend and tried to explain to her a little bit about an important part of the job i’m doing this week (this would be her role if she got the job), she literally walked off in the middle of me speaking. Kelly has never had a job for very long because she’s… kinda good at alienating people. She once worked for her own brother but that ended with them not on speaking terms because she expected him to make more allowances at work for her since she’s family, and she felt extremely betrayed when he didn’t. She can be very funny as a friend, but as a colleague, I honestly believe she’d be a nightmare. She’s also a registered (mature) student at the university so I have no idea how that would even work, since it’s a full time role and a full time degree. She’s in the final year so I also doubt she’d want to stay in the role after graduation.

But I can’t stop her applying can I? And if she gets through to interview, can I even legally blacklist her to the panel? I know she does interview really well, as she has the gift of the gab, so I’m worried. I really wish i’d just kept my mouth shut about the whole thing 😩

Any advice is welcome!

You keep out of it is what you do.
You don’t give her any assistance and you don’t talk about her to anyone at work. IF they find out (or she tells them) you know her and they ask about her you say that you don’t want to comment. They will probably take this as a negative reference cwithout you actually having to do it

I must say i’m a bit surprised by some of the comments on here. You can love someone as a friend or family and still they wouldn’t be your first choice to work with? I doubt any of you can honestly say, hand on heart, you don’t have a friend or family member who you’d probably rather not go into business with, for example. It doesn’t make you evil to know a personal relationship and a professional one are two different beasts.

@Masdintle absolutely not, I know exactly how important admin roles are and that’s exactly why I hate covering this role, i have no experience or training and i’ve just been thrown into it. That’s exactly why I want someone like you describe. Kelly is not that person.

Kelly is funny, has a good heart underneath a sometimes fiery exterior and I actually do a heck of a lot for her that I haven’t talked about here. I just don’t think she’s the colleague i need. My guilt about saying that which is why i came on here in the first place to gain outside perspectives. Most people have put really useful perspectives so thank you for that, I really appreciate it.

I think I will just see how it plays out and not step in unless i am directly asked my opinion.

The first thing any company would do is ask someone about someone they know applying for a job

I get it OP. There are some friends I really like who I wouldn’t want to work with and some people I enjoy working with but don’t want to be friends with

I work in a university and part of my role involves recruitment. The job will have essential criteria which must be met in order for a candidate to be appointed. If Kelly doesn't meet the successful criteria (and it doesn't sound as if she will, from what you say about her lack of background in admin) then she won't even be interviewed. You cannot get her the job, in the sense that it is not in your gift to give away. The recruitment panel has to be seen to be absolutely objective when scoring candidates against the essential criteria in case other candidates query the decision - as happens more often than you'd think at my place of work (big dept, we do a lot of hiring).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with voicing your concerns about Kelly's fit for the post, but do it in the context of the job requirements rather than focussing on her. I wouldn't want to mix business with pleasure so closely and can imagine it would indeed be stressful.

And there's also nothing wrong with wanting a bit of distance between friends/colleagues. Your work is your space. That's understandable. Good luck, OP.

@TupperwareThief

Hi just to clarify some points i guess I didn’t write very well:

1. *@ApolloandDaphne* Tracy is leaving, she has handed in her notice, so it’s not a moot point. Her job will be advertised in the next week or so.

1. I’m not on the sift panel or in control of hiring. I am in a senior position to Tracy’s role, but I would not be her line manager, and it’s unlikely i’d be on the interview panel which would most likely be my boss, the head of overall admin for the college, and the head of academic admin for the department. However, I could potentially influence these people by expressing my concerns: my question is, is it legal/ethical/just generally a good idea to do so?

I kinda suspect the ones who say i’m just going to have to ride it out and hope for the best are probably right. I don’t know if anything else would be considered unfair interference with the process?

Is tell the people interviewing that you would rather not have a friend employed as you love it so much you don't want to jeopardize it, you could also say you don't think she is the right fit, but caveat that by saying that if course if they really do think she is the best person for the job you will deal with it. They probably won't think she is, by what you say, and I am sure they would take your feelings in to consideration.

So you’ve basically told Kelly about a job opening that you don’t want her to apply for. Why on earth did you tell her🤦🏻‍♀️

Thanks for the understanding comments, i’m glad some people get it.

@Byebyeboris i know, hence why I said i wish i’d kept my mouth shut. I didn’t exactly rush up and say ‘hey there’s a job going!’ we were just having a general chit chat and I mentioned Tracy’s antics and how I couldn’t wait for them to advertise the job because i was drowning under the work, she asked me what pay grade it was and i told the truth 🤦‍♀️

Unfortunately i’m not very confident in how well the university process will sift @CannaeRemember, since Tracy had no formal admin qualifications either. But I really hope it does play out as you say! I think I probably will have to manage Kelly’s expectations about how many strings i could realistically pull for her anyway, that’s a good point.

'She is not the right person for it'

means you probably don't need to worry about it. The interview panel will spot this.

Too late now but this is why I never tell my friends ( Except friends that are all ready working for the company) about work.
I get so many friends saying ' let me know if anything comes up at your place' In the past I have mentioned it and learned that is never enough. They want to know what kind of things the panel are looking for in particular, what the current buzz words are, that type of thing.
It's easier not to bother. Also if you tell one friend are you obliged to tell another one who has been asking.
These days I just say any jobs usually go internally!!

The place doesn't sound terribly well managed, but I completely get where you're coming from OP - and it's a little ironic that she expects you to help her into the job, but presumably wouldn't like it if you did the opposite

Either it's sensible for you to get involved or not and she doesn't get to choose, but from your POV my advice would be this: speak up if you're confident you can remain totally objective, but otherwise leave it

However, I could potentially influence these people by expressing my concerns: my question is, is it legal/ethical/just generally a good idea to do so?

Yes of course it is.
It is to the benefit of your department to not inadvertently hire someone who has zero interest in the role, is good at alienating people, & who is only interested in the salary.

However, how is she even going to make the shortlist for a full time role, when she is already a full time student? You may be worrying needlessly.

OP,

As you will be impacted by her getting the job, I think there is nothing wrong with you giving your boss the heads up.

In fact if you don't and it goes tits up, you have no one but yourself to blame.

Likewise if it goes badly and your boss realises you had reservations and never said a word.

35-40 hours a week with someone annoying/incompetent is a long time.

If she has zero admin experience, she will no doubt expect you to train her in!

I would kill it completely and stress to your boss that you are tired of covering Tracy's job and someone experienced needs to be appointed.

No one owes a friend a job that will negatively impact them.

I actually disagree with most of the advice given here. University posts are (usually) scrupulously advertized, recruited against very strict criteria and if you are not on the panel or in the sifting group you won't have a say. I don't think it will come over well if you try to influence this impartial process. I would just allow it to play out, she won't meet the criteria most likely, and so there's no point in making yourself look a bit unprofessional unless she's actually likely to get the job.

I would also make it clear to her you have no influence whatsoever over hiring, it's all done independently and that's that.

The interview questions should be set in advance so that everyone is asked the same. So it would be completely legitimate for you to stress to your boss that there needs to be a question on x topic which is crucial to the job or even a short test on some particular skill (spreadsheet related)?

@TupperwareThief

Thanks for the understanding comments, i’m glad some people get it.

@Byebyeboris i know, hence why I said i wish i’d kept my mouth shut. I didn’t exactly rush up and say ‘hey there’s a job going!’ we were just having a general chit chat and I mentioned Tracy’s antics and how I couldn’t wait for them to advertise the job because i was drowning under the work, she asked me what pay grade it was and i told the truth 🤦‍♀️

Unfortunately i’m not very confident in how well the university process will sift @CannaeRemember, since Tracy had no formal admin qualifications either. But I really hope it does play out as you say! I think I probably will have to manage Kelly’s expectations about how many strings i could realistically pull for her anyway, that’s a good point.

I would maybe start worrying if she applies and passes the paper sift. If you think she’d be terrible and have a valid reason for your thought process, you could possible mention it to whoever is interviewing. You could also make sure that you’re not on the interview panel. If you do bad mouth her though, it could make you look bad.

As for Kelly I would just tell her that you can’t talk about it, as it wouldn’t be fair on the other candidates. Good luck.

How sure are you that Tracy's role will be filled at the same salary level?

Yanbu
I had this happen to me with someone who was one of my best friends at the time. It was VERY awkward as she kept being contacted by recruiters about the role and asking me about it and it strained our friendship.

I said I just couldn't talk about the role or hiring as while it was my team I wasn't the hiring manager and I really couldn't influence the process as I wasn't senior enough (lies! )
When the hiring manager had asked me and I quietly had a word and truthfully told them she is lovely but not right for the role or culture fit for the team.

Yanbu but nothing you can do

I’ve actually had this. I didn’t say anything until she was shortlisted, then when she was (I had no involvement in interview whatsoever) I told my boss the truth in a nice way. They took my considerations on board but then as no one else would fill it they still took her on. She bailed on them anyway.

Oh but because I had told them the truth I didn’t look bad

Just to give an alternative view - my friend is a department lead in a school. She encouraged me to apply for a job working directly below her. I had some reservations, mainly about how it would affect our friendship but also I had no idea what she’d be like as a boss as I only knew her as a friend.

Anyway, long story short, I took the job, it’s been over 2 years now and it’s the best thing I ever did. My career has gone from strength to strength, our friendship is stronger than ever and I’m so grateful my friend talked me into applying. So it can work out sometimes!

I think you stay out of it unless asked.

I was approached recently, for my thoughts regarding a role where one of the shortlisted candidates was someone I'd previously worked with. Amazing CV apparently, & interviewed well.

I was fairly candid, since I'd been asked, that this person was a bloody nightmare, & cited a couple of incidents when they'd caused huge problems.

Then I went about my business & hoped sense would prevail.

The candidate didn't get hired, thank chuff (we would have had to work quite closely, & obviously I'd have cracked on with it, but they really are trouble).

I've since found out that several other people were asked about this candidate & we all reacted similarly - think Dracula confronted by a crucifix! - it's a small world that I work in & they've managed to piss off everyone in it they've ever encountered.

But the point is I was actively asked for my 'off the record' opinion. I wasn't involved in the hiring or interviewing process for this particular role, so I would not have felt it appropriate to steam in unasked to stick in my two pennorth along the lines of 'don't hire X, they're an incompetent, lazy, dishonest, toxic, shitstirring snake'.

Also, to be blunt, I get it that you've had a shitty couple of years & fancy a drama free existence, but that's not going to be your employer's priority.

So I'd be (brutally) frank if asked, but until that point, not your circus.

If it's a well-paid job with very little needed in the way of qualifications, there will most likely be many applicants.