GCSE grades

[UndertheCedartree]

My DS is studying GCSE Maths and English at college. I'm just trying to figure out if he is doing ok as we haven't had much feedback. In the latest mock tests he got a level 4. He only started in September but will be taking the exams this Summer. What kind of grade could he be expected to get in his GCSE exams?

@Comefromaway

Very few schools, whether grammar or private, allow students to do 4 A levels since the reforms, unless it is Maths & Further Maths as universities offer on 3 and there is too much risk of dropping a grade.

Schools must differ so much in different areas. When we looked at local 6th forms there are lots offering 4 A levels. Personally, I think 3 is enough.

@UndertheCedartree yes you’re right, I missed that he wanted to do A-levels. Most home educators are just happy with the pass GCSE result and tend to go on to trade/manual work or work for themselves.

@cantkeepawayforever

IME, requirements like 'Grade 5 in Maths and English' exist because sixth forms want to be able to admit e.g. fantastic English, French and Drama students who won't get more than that minimum in Maths; or conversely Maths, Further Maths and computer science students who just need to 'tick the boxes' in English.

If a student has 5s across the board, including in subjects where the A-level content and skills build on those from GCSE, then as I have said, it is likely that grades obtained at A-level will be very low if a student gets that far.

Why would a 6th form want to take on a student they think will get low grades?

I do apologise @UndertheCedartree. I think when I read earlier it was a class of year 10s and 11s I assumed that they weren’t a class full of first timers. I didn’t realise your son was in a specific class for home-edders and you weren’t just talking about his circs! I reckon he’ll be golden love. Sounds like you’ve got it covered English wise 🙂 With all your Eng Lit back up from home I reckon that college grade could fly by summer! Similar language analysis skills etc. One of the key issues in the Language GCSE is knowing what is required for each type of question. It’s so blimming specific!! I’m sure they’re covering all that. Hope all goes well 🤗

Why would a 6th form want to take on a student they think will get low grades?

Funding. Bums on seats means the courses run/the 6th form stays open.

Why would a 6th form want to take on a student they think will get low grades?

Because if they are on roll on census day and have completed a 'qualifying period', they will get money. Even if the student doesn't complete the course.

@cantkeepawayforever

It seems odd to me that you think he is on course for a 7+ in English Literature taught at home, but only on a 4 at college for English Language. Have I misunderstood? Is it a question of exam technique, the way he interprets the world as non-NT? Or is it that the college is pitching its course at 'just ticking that basic box' by virtue of this cohort? Is there a straight 2 year option at college which aims for higher grades?

I know what is he is course for at home as obviously I'm fully aware of what is happening at home! As for college I have no idea what he is actually heading for after a years study but his first results tested in September he got a 4 in both. Then in the November test for Eng Lang he got a 4 but almost 5. Not had result for Maths. I was interested to see what sort of progress is expected on a very general level. I'm not sure exactly how the college are pitching things, although I understand they can take the GCSE exams again in Y11. One poster said that was standard at her DC's school so may just be a different approach I need to learn about. In terms of the way he interprets the world - that seems to have an effect with Maths but not so much English.

@cantkeepawayforever

Could he also do the English language as an external candidate if you teach him that as well? Or is the college course an important stepping stone to a non home-schooled 6th form, as much for the process as for the results?

(Home-schooled DS when he was quite little, and know that there can be a whole range of reasons for both entering and exiting that particular world)

Yes, the college is a stepping stone for him in that way.

@cantkeepawayforever

I am fully aware of what subjects/grades he needs for A levels.

I appreciate that you do know about the 'on paper' requirement. Have you also looked at it the other way - what A-level results a pupil with particular GCSE results might expect in each subject? It sounds as if you are possibly pitching your - and his - expectations at a 'basic minimum', rather than aiming for 'the best possible stepping stone for further study'.

I know it on paper but have also spoken to 6th forms and discussed our situation. I think I may have given the impression he is aiming for the minimum just because everyone kept telling me he would need this or that grade to do A levels when that is not the case at our local schools. I hope that he reaches his potential whatever that may be. But, I will definitely be asking that question as it makes a lot of sense to be aware of.

Entering students for GCSEs repeatedly to get higher and higher grades used to be a thing, used by schools to 'play' the league tables.

Schools stopped doing this because the rules on league tables were changed so that a student's FIRST grade counted, whether or not they retook them later.

This is likely to be different for a college, where the metric is different and where GCSE league tables won't be such a key driver. Thus for your child - almost uniquely - retaking may well be a way forward, as long as next year's teaching is progressive, building on this year, rather than him just restarting the course again with a fresh set of students.

@MrsAvocet

I agree with LadyLazarus40 Where I live, there is effectively a 2 tier 6th form system as the higher performing schools, despite being technically non selective have entry requirements for A level courses which are applied fairly ruthlessly. They can afford to, because they are oversubscribed, with both their own pupils and pupils from other schools competing for 6th form places which are no longer subject to the constraints of catchment areas etc. My son's school requires 5s for maths and english language regardless of the A levels chosen and at least 6, 7 for some courses, in the subjects selected for A level. It is possible to go elsewhere with lower grades and I'm sure some of those pupils do just fine, but the results are generally not as good at the less sought after schools with lower entry requirements. Obviously it won't be the same everywhere, but I doubt we're unique, so I think the advice to look at outcomes for pupils who start A levels with those minimum requirements is very sound, Also, if I recall rightly, when my older son was applying for Universities, most, if not all, required 5s for maths and english language at GCSE, as well as their specific A level requirements. I know that there are often alternatives for students who haven't followed an entirely traditional educational path though so it's probably worth looking at the kind of courses he's interested in and seeing what would be expected. I wonder if exam technique could be an issue? Pupils who have had a traditional schooling to date will be very used (too used perhaps) to sitting exams and there is a definite skill to it, beyond just knowing the content. It might be that, at least to some degree, your DS needs to improve his exam technique to boost his grades rather than that he doesn't know the work well enough. Best of luck to him - I hope everything turns out well.

Thank you so much and thanks for the useful advice.

Most home educators are just happy with the pass GCSE result and tend to go on to trade/manual work or work for themselves.

Are you sure about that?? I don't have any data, and my sample may be biased, but none of the home educated that I know have gone onto trade/manual work etc. They've all gone onto A-levels and university.

[quote Dottyteapot]@UndertheCedartree yes you’re right, I missed that he wanted to do A-levels. Most home educators are just happy with the pass GCSE result and tend to go on to trade/manual work or work for themselves.[/quote]
Really? I didn't know that. My DS's friendship group all want to go to university.

@Dontfuckingsaycheese

I do apologise *@UndertheCedartree*. I think when I read earlier it was a class of year 10s and 11s I assumed that they weren’t a class full of first timers. I didn’t realise your son was in a specific class for home-edders and you weren’t just talking about his circs! I reckon he’ll be golden love. Sounds like you’ve got it covered English wise 🙂 With all your Eng Lit back up from home I reckon that college grade could fly by summer! Similar language analysis skills etc. One of the key issues in the Language GCSE is knowing what is required for each type of question. It’s so blimming specific!! I’m sure they’re covering all that. Hope all goes well 🤗

Thank you! And thank you for all the advice. I think exam technique is going to be key.

@Comefromaway

Why would a 6th form want to take on a student they think will get low grades?

Funding. Bums on seats means the courses run/the 6th form stays open.

Ah, ok. I didn't think they'd want bad results on their league tables or whatever they are!

@cantkeepawayforever

Why would a 6th form want to take on a student they think will get low grades?

Because if they are on roll on census day and have completed a 'qualifying period', they will get money. Even if the student doesn't complete the course.

Yes, that makes sense and if they drop out the grades won't affect their league tables.

Many of these 'low grade' students won't get as far as taking the exams, so won't feature in the headline league tables.

Best case scenario for schools is to have them all stay for critical 'counting' days, having completed a long enough 'qualifying period', but then not be entered for or take the exams.

@cantkeepawayforever

Entering students for GCSEs repeatedly to get higher and higher grades used to be a thing, used by schools to 'play' the league tables.

Schools stopped doing this because the rules on league tables were changed so that a student's FIRST grade counted, whether or not they retook them later.

This is likely to be different for a college, where the metric is different and where GCSE league tables won't be such a key driver. Thus for your child - almost uniquely - retaking may well be a way forward, as long as next year's teaching is progressive, building on this year, rather than him just restarting the course again with a fresh set of students.

There is definitely a Y10 and Y11 class. I would want to know that it wasn't just a focus on getting a 5 rather than reaching their full potential, though.

@irregularegular @UndertheCedartree I must hang out in different home ed groups than you guys! I seriously don’t know any that went on to university (I’ve run a home ed group for the last 15 years so got to know a lot in our area).

But I wasn’t being negative, I love that the home educators I know have all put happiness first, so tend to work in jobs that they enjoy which happen to be manual labour. I think this is one of the benefits of home educating, you go to the groups that interest you and your child.

OP, I hope your child gets the grade they need to do the next stage of their life, it sounds like they have a plan of what they want to do, and at this age, that’s great! I had no idea!

Yes the grade matters for the longer term because universities use gcse grades for applications. DD1's 6th form required 5 GCSEs at 6 or above for a levels, dd2's college required 8 at 6 or above.

Ds's sixth form has the world of work route (apprenticeships and jobs) and the university route. Each student depending on their chosen course and academic ability falls into one of these categories.

His sixth form only want 5 grade 4s for entry however depending on the subject if they have taken it before they want a 4 for English but a 6 for maths or science. English and History for example are subjective so depending on who is marking the GCSE they can vary in grading whereas maths is either right or wrong, much less ambiguity.

But a grade 4 or 5 at GCSE does not usually equal stellar grades for uni applications and the discussion for his particular sixth form would be grade progression from GCSE to A level. I only know maths but typically a 7 at GCSE gets a C/D due to the significant jump. Therefore I would be looking ahead to uni courses your son may be interested in and their requirements. Massively over subscribed university courses will look at everything holistically which will include GCSE results as well as A level predictions, personal statements and teacher references.

[quote Dottyteapot]**@irregularegular* @UndertheCedartree* I must hang out in different home ed groups than you guys! I seriously don’t know any that went on to university (I’ve run a home ed group for the last 15 years so got to know a lot in our area).

But I wasn’t being negative, I love that the home educators I know have all put happiness first, so tend to work in jobs that they enjoy which happen to be manual labour. I think this is one of the benefits of home educating, you go to the groups that interest you and your child.

OP, I hope your child gets the grade they need to do the next stage of their life, it sounds like they have a plan of what they want to do, and at this age, that’s great! I had no idea! [/quote]
Yes, it's true there is a lot of diversity in the home-ed community and I think it's great that DC don't feel they all have to follow the traditional route if something different suits them. My DS wants to be a librarian!

OP
Have you spoken to the college about any exam adjustments your DS might need and any evidence of the usual way of working?
For example both of mine qualified for extra time and use of a laptop due to dyslexia, processing speed and handwriting issues.
www.jcq.org.uk/exams-office/access-arrangements-and-special-consideration/regulations-and-guidance/

@BaconMassive, as someone else mentioned, retakes won't count. UCAS asks for first time grades to stop the grade inflation that previously existed through retakes.

Op, the jump to A level is seen as significant and my local (over subscribed) schools insist on 6 grades over 6. That is their entry to study any subject. Some schools won't allow Maths A levels unless the grade is 8. A level maths is still one of the most popular A level courses so they can afford to set these high thresholds.

[quote ChazsBrilliantAttitude]OP
Have you spoken to the college about any exam adjustments your DS might need and any evidence of the usual way of working?
For example both of mine qualified for extra time and use of a laptop due to dyslexia, processing speed and handwriting issues.
www.jcq.org.uk/exams-office/access-arrangements-and-special-consideration/regulations-and-guidance/[/quote]
You've reminded me this is also top of my list to raise. DS has weak motor skills so would need a laptop or scribe. Thank you for that.