GCSE grades

[UndertheCedartree]

My DS is studying GCSE Maths and English at college. I'm just trying to figure out if he is doing ok as we haven't had much feedback. In the latest mock tests he got a level 4. He only started in September but will be taking the exams this Summer. What kind of grade could he be expected to get in his GCSE exams?

@Santiagopink - no South East! Good luck to your DC!

@OnceuponaRainbow18

With hard work most the kids I teach more up between 1-3 grades after their mocks.

Grade 4 is the equivalent to an old school C grade

Interesting, thanks.

I think a question you should ask potential sixth forms is 'What A-level grades do students who have the minimum admissions grades at GCSE typically obtain?' [or you could ask for data by subject, so 'What grades do students who arrive with a 5 in this subject typically get at A-level?'

You might find that students who arrive with 5s typically leave with Ds or so at A-level (except in maths, where it will be lower still, if they are allowed to start the subject at all). If that isn't what you see your child as aiming for eventually, you may want to work backwards, thinking 'well, if I think my child is capable of getting a B at A-level, what GCSE grade would put him on target for that?'

It is difficult to predict with a ND, home-educated child, but it is probably a sensible 'reality check' in terms of the grades that an able child should be aiming for at this point to be on track for A-levels sufficient for their next step.

Yep kind of - gives us a baseline to show later progress and helps inform planning somewhat. Of course all students are different so gaps in knowledge pop up all over the shop!

Some are saying redo next year too. I mentioned funding. You need to check that. Yes it may be possible to pay and redo the exam to improve on a 4. But that would depend on the college being willing to accept as an external candidate. No guarantee. Also, that would mean he doesn’t get another year’s teaching if he has that 4 already. You might have to pay. This does depend on his age though. There may be different funding for under 16s. But FE funding rules for post 16 are incredibly tight.

@OnceuponaRainbow18 is that in a school? Where they have lessons every day? Not 1/2 times a week?

[quote UndertheCedartree]@LadyLazarus40 - we have the grammar schools and grammar streams that require higher grades for studying 4 A levels. Some of the subjects require a higher grade but Eng Lit is a 5.[/quote]
Sorry I realise my post was lacking in much info.

My concern would be what outcomes do those students with 5 x 5 at GCSE have at A level and overall what are the A level results like at the school.

When my oldest was applying to Uni last year the places he applied to were looking at their best 8 (I think) GCSE’s taken in the same sitting and requires what they called Higher Level (I think) passes in Eng & Maths - so 6 or above.

If your ds is aiming to go to Uni I would look at the entrance requirements and work backwards. All 5 which my dc applied to took GCSES into account as well as A levels.

So he’s doing English Lit GCSE with you and just sitting the exam as an external candidate and English Language GCSE at college?? Is that correct @UndertheCedartree?

Very few schools, whether grammar or private, allow students to do 4 A levels since the reforms, unless it is Maths & Further Maths as universities offer on 3 and there is too much risk of dropping a grade.

Comefrom - locally, quite a few sixth forms encourage students to start with 4 and then drop 1, either at the end of Y12 or earlier, to avoid situations where a pupil dislikes one choice or it is not what they have expected, but has to carry on or jump to another course that is already several weeks in.

DS started 4, dropped 1 after Y12.

DD [lockdown sixth form) carried on 4 in the end.

[quote Fireflygal]@BaconMassive, competitive Unis look at GSCE grades.

Op, grade 5 is not an aspirational level so if he is bright you would want him to achieve higher. Generally 7 and above is a good standard to cope with the demands of A levels. Those children that achieve less than 6 generally aren't suited to A levels.

You mention he is able, how has that been assessed?[/quote]
In my opinion they don't ever look at GCSE grades that have been superseded by a better GCSE grade in the same GCSE subject.

i.e. Grade 5 GCSE Maths in Y10
Grade 6 GCSE Maths in Y11,

they'll only care about the Y11 GCSE grade.

@Comefromaway

That’s incredibly low entry requirements. Most would struggle with 3 A-levels having only achieved 5 Grade 5 GCSEs.

Our grammar school sixth form wants grade 5 maths and English but grade 6 or above in subjects you want to take at a level. Also a total grade of 33 points from best 6 GCSEs.

[quote Fireflygal]@BaconMassive, competitive Unis look at GSCE grades.

Op, grade 5 is not an aspirational level so if he is bright you would want him to achieve higher. Generally 7 and above is a good standard to cope with the demands of A levels. Those children that achieve less than 6 generally aren't suited to A levels.

You mention he is able, how has that been assessed?[/quote]
It's obvious he's able. But also been assessed by ed psych etc. Plus had work marked at his classes/been given feedback.

@LucyOrli

If you’re content with him getting a 5 and he’s already on a 4 then I’m not sure what your initial concern was about…? Sounds like you’re actually happy enough with how he’s doing, regardless of what his college says.

I'd like him to reach his potential which I believe is higher than a 5.

IME, requirements like 'Grade 5 in Maths and English' exist because sixth forms want to be able to admit e.g. fantastic English, French and Drama students who won't get more than that minimum in Maths; or conversely Maths, Further Maths and computer science students who just need to 'tick the boxes' in English.

If a student has 5s across the board, including in subjects where the A-level content and skills build on those from GCSE, then as I have said, it is likely that grades obtained at A-level will be very low if a student gets that far.

@Dottyteapot

As he’s doing them at college a year early, if he fails or gets a grade 2, he can redo them next year for free to get a better grade.

If he gets a grade 4, and wants to try and improve it next year, you’ll prob need to pay for it (approx £70). But as a 4 is a pass he won’t need to redo it.

The homeschool college students get more one-to-one lessons so only tend to need a year to do them.

They will be keeping him informed rather than you as they treat them like the adult students.

@Dottyteapot - he needs to get a 5 in Maths and English for A levels, though.

It seems odd to me that you think he is on course for a 7+ in English Literature taught at home, but only on a 4 at college for English Language. Have I misunderstood? Is it a question of exam technique, the way he interprets the world as non-NT? Or is it that the college is pitching its course at 'just ticking that basic box' by virtue of this cohort? Is there a straight 2 year option at college which aims for higher grades?

Could he also do the English language as an external candidate if you teach him that as well? Or is the college course an important stepping stone to a non home-schooled 6th form, as much for the process as for the results?

(Home-schooled DS when he was quite little, and know that there can be a whole range of reasons for both entering and exiting that particular world)

@Dontfuckingsaycheese

‘His class is not for re-sits or extra support!’

That may not be why he is there. But that is what the class is. I teach English in FE. It’s likely to be for 3 hours max per week. It’s considered a resit class. Though we try to cover basics the course content is pretty hefty. Not enough time really to do it justice. Of course this depends on what you’re going in with. It’s meant to be building on from previous years’ content. Also - I will just add - the course he is likely to be doing is English Language GCSE. So huge huge leap to A level lit which really does rely on prior learning at GCSE level… Eng Language doesn’t include poetry, even full books but unseen extracts. One more thing you need to check - if he gets his 4 this year will funding be available for him to redo for a higher grade? I believe it’s only available until you’ve got that 4.

You may teach in a FE College but are obviously not aware of Home Ed courses. Noone in the class is doing re-sits or getting extra support. They are all Y10/11 students from the home-ed community. Yes, it is English Language. As I have explained he is studying Eng Lit at home and I am fully aware of what subjects/grades he needs for A levels.

I am fully aware of what subjects/grades he needs for A levels.

I appreciate that you do know about the 'on paper' requirement. Have you also looked at it the other way - what A-level results a pupil with particular GCSE results might expect in each subject? It sounds as if you are possibly pitching your - and his - expectations at a 'basic minimum', rather than aiming for 'the best possible stepping stone for further study'.

[quote toomuchlaundry]@Dontfuckingsaycheese I assume that is how they can have a mock in the first 2 weeks, as it is for students who have already studied the content[/quote]
No, it is not. It is a class for 14-16 yo. I think the 'mock' was actually a baseline test. Of course some of the DC will have done some study at GCSE level as they have the flexibility within home ed - my DS has. However this course presumes no prior knowledge of GCSE content.

@cantkeepawayforever

I think a question you should ask potential sixth forms is 'What A-level grades do students who have the minimum admissions grades at GCSE typically obtain?' [or you could ask for data by subject, so 'What grades do students who arrive with a 5 in this subject typically get at A-level?'

You might find that students who arrive with 5s typically leave with Ds or so at A-level (except in maths, where it will be lower still, if they are allowed to start the subject at all). If that isn't what you see your child as aiming for eventually, you may want to work backwards, thinking 'well, if I think my child is capable of getting a B at A-level, what GCSE grade would put him on target for that?'

It is difficult to predict with a ND, home-educated child, but it is probably a sensible 'reality check' in terms of the grades that an able child should be aiming for at this point to be on track for A-levels sufficient for their next step.

Thank you - that is a good question.

@Dontfuckingsaycheese

Yep kind of - gives us a baseline to show later progress and helps inform planning somewhat. Of course all students are different so gaps in knowledge pop up all over the shop!

Some are saying redo next year too. I mentioned funding. You need to check that. Yes it may be possible to pay and redo the exam to improve on a 4. But that would depend on the college being willing to accept as an external candidate. No guarantee. Also, that would mean he doesn’t get another year’s teaching if he has that 4 already. You might have to pay. This does depend on his age though. There may be different funding for under 16s. But FE funding rules for post 16 are incredibly tight.

Oh no - the course is definitely funded for the 2 years and they can retake in the 2nd year if necessary.

@LadyLazarus40 - thank you for that information.

I agree with LadyLazarus40
Where I live, there is effectively a 2 tier 6th form system as the higher performing schools, despite being technically non selective have entry requirements for A level courses which are applied fairly ruthlessly. They can afford to, because they are oversubscribed, with both their own pupils and pupils from other schools competing for 6th form places which are no longer subject to the constraints of catchment areas etc. My son's school requires 5s for maths and english language regardless of the A levels chosen and at least 6, 7 for some courses, in the subjects selected for A level. It is possible to go elsewhere with lower grades and I'm sure some of those pupils do just fine, but the results are generally not as good at the less sought after schools with lower entry requirements. Obviously it won't be the same everywhere, but I doubt we're unique, so I think the advice to look at outcomes for pupils who start A levels with those minimum requirements is very sound,
Also, if I recall rightly, when my older son was applying for Universities, most, if not all, required 5s for maths and english language at GCSE, as well as their specific A level requirements. I know that there are often alternatives for students who haven't followed an entirely traditional educational path though so it's probably worth looking at the kind of courses he's interested in and seeing what would be expected.
I wonder if exam technique could be an issue? Pupils who have had a traditional schooling to date will be very used (too used perhaps) to sitting exams and there is a definite skill to it, beyond just knowing the content. It might be that, at least to some degree, your DS needs to improve his exam technique to boost his grades rather than that he doesn't know the work well enough. Best of luck to him - I hope everything turns out well.

@Dontfuckingsaycheese

So he’s doing English Lit GCSE with you and just sitting the exam as an external candidate and English Language GCSE at college?? Is that correct *@UndertheCedartree*?

He's doing GCSE English Language, GCSE Maths plus a vocational course at college. He is currently studying GCSE Eng Lit and GCSE Sociology at home plus other home-ed (non- GCSE) classes.