Seller trying to charge £'000s on top for existing fitted window shutters!

[MrsKT123]

We're buying a house and have had the fixtures and fittings report back and our seller has noted that the fitted window shutters are not included and would be an extra few thousand £s if we'd like them to stay! (Don't want to give exact amount in case they're on here!)

We're already paying considerably over asking price, had no quibbles on around £5ks worth of work required noted on our survey and have said we're happy to exchange and complete in order with their timescale (they have asked for an extended period between exchange and completion). We love the house and just want things to go smoothly.

I'm really disappointed by this as I would not have expected them to be taking these as they're made-to-measure and I know the house they are buying and there's no way they'd fit. To me, it's like taking the kitchen cupboards or built in wardrobes with them.

Surely it's more hassle to them to get them removed and put good the decoration for all windows in the house (large 5-bed with some bay windows)?

YABU - you shouldn't expect fitted window shutters to be included
YANBU - of course fitted window shutters should be included

No housing is not cheap in Australia. It's ridiculously expensive! No there are very few cash buyers. We still don't have "chains". Simultaneous settlement is pretty common, some people use bridging loans, some people rent for a while until they find the house they want , or move in with mum and dad for a month or so. It's just a transaction between two parties. You sort yourselves out. Most people sell first and then buy. No chains.

I'd tell them to shove said blinds up their arses take them, unless you really want them of course.

No chains where we were live in the US (I don't know if it works differently in other States). Most people sell then move into rented accommodation while looking to buy. There's loads of purpose built apartment blocks for short term rentals, with the option of renting furniture packages if you want to leave your own in storage. I've done that twice now, and it was pretty painless. We were only in the apartments for a few weeks both times, from making an offer on our new houses to moving in only took us 3 weeks and that's not unusual.
The other option I've had known people to use, is to sell their house then rent it back from the new owners for a few weeks or months until ready to move.

Yes, chains are almost unavoidable. How does this not happen in Australia? Is property so cheap that everyone can afford to own more than one house?

No, certain parts of Australia (the most populated) rival most expensive cities in the world and cash buyers are extremely rare, but we don’t have the chains everyone goes on about in many places in the UK.

Generally, most people have a gap between houses - so you sell, get the $$, have the agreement with the bank in principle for the next property, then put your furniture in storage and literally live out of a few washing baskets and toiletry bags until you find you next house. You live out of your friends garage, your parents spare room or you do a short term rental using bean bags on floor etc. Because our selling/buying doesn’t take months like yours and drag on endlessly because of odd things and chains it’s really just a very short term pain/inconvenience in the scheme of things, typically a few weeks. It’s also good in that you don’t feel pressured to ‘find something’ in a short time while selling/buying (as our times are short), it gives breathing room to find something you actually want rather than settling for something due to timeframe. If the market is such that the type of thing you are after is in short supply you just resign yourself to a longer rental term while looking and would then get a larger rental where you can have your furniture with you rather than keeping the majority in storage.

We always rented up front when deciding to sell, especially when kids were young. No way I was keeping a house clean with little yoghurty hands etc while buyers were coming through so it was just less stressful. Move, rent, sell, look around for something suitable, but, move in, end lease. That’s quite rare and we had the $$ to do this to save sanity but typically people just suffer while selling and then for the few weeks gap between buying and new house being settled.

Any Australian house I've bought or sold has had a standard 30 day contract for moving in/out once a price is agreed on. The first 14 days are used for getting inspections done, perhaps changing the price dependent on the reports, finalising finances etc. Generally on the 14th day, it goes 'unconditional', and nothing can change after that. A further 14 days later is generally moving day. I neither know nor care what the people buying/selling my house are doing. I've never met any of them in person either, which seems to be a common theme amongst house sale threads here.

The house next to me went on the market about five or six weeks ago. The lovely quiet previous owners must have moved out earlier this week, because the new horrible noisy neighbours are already in there. Perfectly normal timeline. None of this chain and mucking people about on the supposed completion day rubbish.

Yes agree pp. Except it is 6 weeks in NSW and there is some wiggle room for banks stuffing about. I also don't know what the people I bought off did - I think they bought a flat maybe and the people I sold to knocked it down and rebuilt so presumably already had a rental sorted. Not my problem.
Also, I've noticed you seem to have to tell ( in the UK) the potential buyers house problems and neighbour disputes and so on. That is all on the buyer in Australia - except for one thing that was a result of a court case ( in NSW anyway - not sure of other states) the agent - not the vendor - may have to tell them if the house is "infamous" in some way . Eg one couple bought a lovely house and then found out that the son had killed his parents and sister right there in the house and they sued and got their money back. You have to provide a title and a land plan of easements etc of course.

I think one of the key differences in Aus is that the surveys etc have all been done in advance, and once your offer is accepted it pretty much immediately becomes legally binding, with a significant non-refundable deposit paid. So no faffing about arguing over survey findings, risks of pulling out or gazumping

Let them have the shutters OP. I would insist they make good. I was once sued for a door. Excluded in the brochure and fixture form but they lied and said I made a verbal agreement. They didn't win but it cost me time and money . I still have the door. Let them enjoy their ruddy shutters!

They are actually moving to a house which is on the same road we're on now

I hope that doesn't turn out to be too awkward. Imagine bumping into them at the supermarket..

@FireMeetGasoline

I'd tell them to shove said blinds up their arses take them, unless you really want them of course.

Same

trying to negotiate with the buyer for the light switches and taps etc

What the hell?!

We’re filing in fixtures and fittings now and I’m essentially offering loads of stuff for free because it fits nice in specific places around the house. They may say no, in which case we will remove them, but I thought that was normal?!

@TalithaWallace

I think one of the key differences in Aus is that the surveys etc have all been done in advance, and once your offer is accepted it pretty much immediately becomes legally binding, with a significant non-refundable deposit paid. So no faffing about arguing over survey findings, risks of pulling out or gazumping

It’s the same in Sweden. The UK is really the odd one out here with a very complicated and outdated system.

risks of pulling out or gazumping

That reminds me of an incident when we sold our last house. We sold it to an English family (that was about all I knew/cared to know about them TBH). The wife turned up one day for some reason I can't remember, and the front door was open. My BIL was holding a copy of the house sales brochure as he was standing in the hallway talking to me.

Next thing I know, the real estate agent is calling me as the buyer had called them hysterically as she'd gotten it into her head that he was there as a new buyer to gazump her! Firstly, I would never be that unethical; and secondly, it's illegal where I live, so would never happen anyway. After reading some of the house buying/selling threads on here, her over the top reaction makes so much more sense....

so what do you do with all your furniture? Are the rentals unfurnished? In the UK it's very difficult to find a rental with lease of less than 6 months. You can of course get an Air B&B for a shorter period but that is much more expensive plus you'd have to put your stuff in storage. How does that work in Australia?

Chains don't really happen in Scotland either. Once the missives are signed, which happens pretty early on in the process, you're tied in to the process. If your purchase falls apart for any reason but you've signed missives to sell, you just have to find somewhere else to live, stay with family, rent. Each purchase is its own bubble, and we don't have gazumping or gazundering either. English system is not fit for purpose; we sold my MIL's house there a couple of years ago and I was baffled and amazed by the process!

(But it's unusual for purchases to fall apart precisely because there's no chain and because you legally commit to both the offer and details early on). Every house purchase and sale I've done has been completed in around 3 months.

@TalithaWallace

I think one of the key differences in Aus is that the surveys etc have all been done in advance, and once your offer is accepted it pretty much immediately becomes legally binding, with a significant non-refundable deposit paid. So no faffing about arguing over survey findings, risks of pulling out or gazumping

Unless things have changed a lot, that’s not true in at least my home state. You do your building & pest inspections in the first 14 days, and you commonly have a back out right if there are issues with the survey, or you can’t secure finance.

The other thing Australia does better is that searches are digitised, self-service & don’t take weeks to come back. Even as a graduate in 2005 I was able to get instant reports!

Friends of ours had similar after they had offered on a house. They received the f&f list and both the stairlift and Ray urn cooker were included as additional purchase items and had (almost retail) prices attached to them. Friends declined both and stated they were to be removed and areas made good - including the removal of the Rayburn’s flue and roof repair.

Coming the end of the negotiations they received a reply that the the stairlift would be gone but that the Rayburn was staying as it was not financially viable to remove the cooker and carry out the ‘making good’ work including on the roof.

When they moved in the stairlift was, indeed, gone but the carpet had holes in it from the fittings needed to secure the stairlift to the floor. They Rayburn as still there with a book of recipes/instructions for best use of the oven plus a list of its quirks!! They didn’t bother following up the damage to the carpet as they were going to replace it eventually anyway!!

When we sold my parents house, we included curtains that were up at the time of viewings in the f&f list as well as carpets and 2 sheds in the garden. The solicitor received a shocked response that we weren’t leaving our furniture and contents of kitchen cupboards as the buyer assumed they’d be moving into a ‘move ready’ home with no need to furnish or buy anything!!

In my area of the US there is a strict schedule to buying - usually 60 days from acceptance of an offer.

You are represented by a buyer's agent who finds properties to view and access to them, make an offer, review a counter offer, negotiate if necessary, and plonk down your earnest money which is held in escrow by the seller's agent. Once the offer is accepted, you are under contract.

The offer is in writing and states the dates by which the process will be completed. During that time the buyer has to secure a mortgage for X percentage of the purchase price, hire a home inspector to perform an inspection of the physical state of the building and its heating, AC, wiring, gas fittings, plumbing, foundation, chimney, windows, doors, floors, walls, insulation, roof, etc. as well as hiring surveyors to check the property boundary.

If all of that turns out to be satisfactory and the buyers wish to proceed, the parties proceed to closing on a date stipulated in the contract, or that can be negotiated. The buyers can also negotiate the price, or any credits for repairs or replacements of faulty appliances, etc, based on any problems brought to light by the home inspector. This is done by the buyer's and seller's lawyers and a new contract can be drawn up based on the outcome of negotiations, but the schedule remains. Once the price is finalised, the buyers apply for a mortgage and arrange with the seller for access to the house so an appraisal can be done. The mortgage application and appraisal go to underwriting. Usually it takes about 30 days to have a mortgage approved. Buyers and sellers then hire movers.

A final walk through happens the day before closing or the morning of. This is to check that everything supposed to be in the house is there and everything supposed to be moved out has been moved out, with no major damage done or changes to the description of the property since going under contract, and any stipulated repairs done properly.

At closing, usually at the offices of a title company, the title is produced, the down payment leaves the buyer's account and goes to the bank, the mortgage documents are signed, and cheques are cut for buyer's and seller's agents, and for buyer's and seller's lawyers. Fees are paid to the title company.

There are usually contingencies written into a contract stating conditions in which the buyers can withdraw their offer without prejudice and keeping the escrow - inspection report reveals problems buyers don't like, mortgage appraisal is lower than hoped for, mortgage application turned down, survey reveals property boundary issues, title is not clear.

In Scotland too, solicitors do much more of the process. Solicitors accept offers on behalf of the seller, and once an offer has been accepted, they can't accept another one. This means that gazumping is very rare because if the seller then somehow got another offer after accepting the first one, they would need to engage a new solicitor and start that process again.

I think with my last house purchase, we had missives signed in about a fortnight, which meant we had a settled date and were legally bound to continue with the purchase. We had already sorted missives to sell our home, and we arranged the same date for both transactions so we could do it in a day.

The rest of the time is for the searches and other legal stuff and also just the process of packing up to move. You can actually move very quickly but IME most people like to arrange moving date for a couple of months' time to give time to arrange packing, etc.

I'd call their bluff. They won't go to all the effort and expense of getting them taken out. Bloody cheeky!

There is no right or wrong here. The sellers can sell whatever they want.

The relevant form used in the legal contact is called a TA10 Fittings and Contents Form.

Shit like that would leave a bad taste in my mouth and id be prepared to walk. Had similiar before re a stairs/hallway carpet. Called their bluff and told them to take it with them. Ffs it was 20 year old carpet. Some people! and some of them are on this thread lol judging by replies

One thing is better about the US - your offer is binding once accepted. No gazumping. There are specified conditions that can break it. If the market is mad, some people waive inspection, but that's risky. There's things agents here do to try to drive up bidding wars, but that's over once accepted.

I would say you’d assumed they’d be included, and that you won’t be paying for them, not only that but you’d like to knock a bit off the price as you’re now going to have to factor in buying new ones yourselves.