To think this isn’t a good way to discipline a child?

[Greenbluestar]

Get them to write a Christmas list of ten things they want, no.1 being the thing they want most, no.2 being the thing they want second most, etc. Then slowly cross items off the list starting at 10, 9, 8, etc whenever they misbehave?

I don’t want to say who has done this as it’s abit outing but would be interested in your thoughts?

@Greenbluestar forgot to add a bug unmusnetty hug xx

*unmumsnetty - sorry couldnt type! I need coffee.

ps. Our lists to Santa were wish lists and we would watch them go up the chimney and it was explained Santa would do his best but he has everyone in the world to think of in one night and he will do hi best.

No threats were ever made.

I am so sorry OP xx

Here's to a fresh new start with your own Christmas traditions and own family.

That’s incredibly cruel behaviour from a parent. The poor kid.

Cruel having said that times change, I used to think it was acceptable to smack a child.

@ComtesseDeSpair

I suppose it’s less unkind than the fairly widespread punishment method of removal of a favourite toy for every incidence of bad behaviour and having to earn it back with good behaviour. “Taking away” something they don’t have by crossing it off a list isn’t particularly punishing.

I think the list is far worse, because you have deliberately misled the child.

You have encouraged them to sit down and write out all the things they want for Christmas, a really nice and exciting activity to do.

Then you take that list and use it to inform punishments.

That's really messed up.

Temporarily confiscating a toy and then giving it back is much less manipulating and controlling than this.

@alexdgr8

and where was your mother in all this ?

Around.

@GrazingSheep

I suppose it’s less unkind than the fairly widespread punishment method of removal of a favourite toy for every incidence of bad behaviour and having to earn it back with good behaviour

That’s true

Isn't that making a child see that there are consequences to poor behaviour or are you suggesting that poor behaviour should never have consequences? That poor child is going to have an enormous shock when they are out in the real world where they're not pandered to all day.

Consequences to poor behaviour should be linked to the behaviour though, surely, not randomly removing a toy?

So if they are hitting their sister with a toy I'd remove the toy, but I wouldn't remove a toy if they were rude for eg.

How is this different to sticker charts that earn a toy or something they want

Or removing toys the children already have

Which is a very common 'punishment'

I therapeutically parent so wouldn't do anything punitive (natural and logical consequences here) but can't see anything terrible in what you've posted, not worse than other common methods of discipline

I think it’s ok for a 10 year old provided it’s used for major transgressions.

The situation described in the OP is horrible. Though I agree with a PP that the common punishment of taking away a child’s beloved toy is worse.

I’m sure there’s a huge backstory and wider context to the OP’s childhood experience, because nobody goes no contact with their entire family simply because they were punished for childhood bad behaviour by not getting the Christmas presents they wanted. So in that sense,

In the context of an ordinary, loving family I don’t think that either the Christmas present punishment or having toys temporarily taken away for misbehaviour is “cruel” or “abusive.” In what I presume the OP believes to be a family where their parents were generally manipulative, spiteful and conditional with their love and affection, both punishments weigh differently.

@ComtesseDeSpair
Fair point. I am trying to isolate different aspects of my childhood and reevaluate but I suppose context is important. I don’t know what’s normal anymore.

I appreciate your input.

@WinnersDinner

How is this different to sticker charts that earn a toy or something they want

Or removing toys the children already have

Which is a very common 'punishment'

I therapeutically parent so wouldn't do anything punitive (natural and logical consequences here) but can't see anything terrible in what you've posted, not worse than other common methods of discipline

Sticker charts /earning something they want is rewarding good behaviour/choices.

Removal of things can often be a natural consequence, especially if the unwanted behaviour is related to those things. For example DD once lied about brushing her teeth so she'd have extra time on her ipad. She then lost the ipad because she lied about it.

The best consequences are natural as far as possible, immediate , reasonable a realistic.

There are 364 days in which OP had to behave and only so many things she could have on the list. It was unrealistic to expect her to end up with any by Christmas and setting her up to fail. One might wonder if the goal was actually discipline or ensuring she would have no or very few Christmas presents.

@Greenbluestar. Don't be put off asking. It must be so difficult to know what's normal/acceptable/a better option, when you've had an abusive/horrible/unkind childhood.

There's all kinds of things where we assume out 'normal' isn't everyone's normal.

It wasn't until I'd spent years on MN that I realised I had actually had a 'luckier/nicer/better' childhood than many. And frankly it should have been the norm, just care & love, not financially well off, but not going without food/heating either.

I don't think it's great for minor examples of misbehaving, I don't think it would be as much of a problem for major discipline issues.

At the same time, I think people used to parent much more harshly than they generally do now, I think this would have been received very differently by people at the time.

I'm sorry you went through that OP.

It's spiteful and cruel and calculated to put the child in a permanent state of walking on eggshells never knowing if a particular behaviour is going to warrant another item on the Christmas list being crossed off.

Some people punish their children in really sadistic ways.

My children grew up in the 80s and 90s and I remember one of my children being at a friend's house, they were around 9 or 10, can't remember exactly, when the friend said something that the child's mother took exception to, probably a mild swear word, and the mother punished her by putting hot mustard in her mouth. Horrible.

It really upset my daughter and she never went to the child's house to play again as she was frighten of what the child's mother might do.

Having said that, it's not that different for some children today. I was at my other daughter's house about a year ago, she has young children, and two of the children where being a bit cheeky and not doing as she was telling them.

Her husband decided to step in, slapped both children on the back of the head and took a favourite toy off the older child.

He's a horrible person, so while I was shocked, I wasn't surprised and it really distressed me to see the children being hit and watch my grand daughter so hurt and upset.

Thankfully my daughter spoke to him in very strong terms about it afterwards and he never hit them again but I don't think the nasty punishment of children has stopped by any means in some families.

I am sure I read somewhere of the method of dealing with a child opening his Christmas presents and often behaving like a hateful, rude brat. The parents prepared some mock presents (wrapped but containing nothing much) and when the child acted up they threw one of these “presents” on the fire.

[quote jamandmarmaladethesecondcoming]@Greenbluestar forgot to add a bug unmusnetty hug xx[/quote]
Gladly received x

"Bad" behaviour from children is usually communication that something is wrong.

I don't think it is, at ten, necessarily. It can be down to the fact that many children are innately quite selfish and if not parented well that can persist and drive behaviour that isn't socially acceptable.

Occasional bad behaviour from a 10 year old can just be plain old naughtiness - doing things they know arent allowed in the hope they wont be caught. It's fairly standard risk taking, where the child thinks the potential gain outweighs the likely punishment.

I don't love the discipline in the OP but we don't know anything about the situation with this kid or their behaviour.

ok, discipline and punishment is never a pleasant business. But i guess parents using Xmas presents as a threat would think its better than hitting/shouting/withholding food.

@CatsArePeople

ok, discipline and punishment is never a pleasant business. But i guess parents using Xmas presents as a threat would think its better than hitting/shouting/withholding food.

The thing is parenting is not a race to the bottom. Neglect is not better than sexual abuse. Emotional abuse is not better than physical abuse. Beating your kid up only once a year because you lost it it's not better than doing it every day.

The bar shouldn't be set at "could this be considered abuse?" .

I don't really do rewards and punishments. I prefer natural consequences and teaching collaboration, manners and kindness. Natural consequences can be both good and bad. I suppose I might take away DDs ipad for an hour or two until her room is tidied up but that's more because it distracts her and nothing gets done. I tried the whole "naughty step" thing years ago but it just teaches kids to behave so they don't get punished, which doesn't make much sense really. The idea of taking away something the child wants seems pretty standard discipline for plenty of parents whether that's an (as yet unbought) Xmas present, a treat, activity, desert after lunch or whatever. Although what the OPS SD did seems harsh, it's basically the same as any other "punishment".