To think some people are ‘enjoying’ the pandemic

[Flynnqwer]

I’ve noticed an attitude amongst some people where they’re nothing short of praying for a new, more lethal, variant.

I’ve noticed it amongst people I work with and people I do a hobby with. Any discussion about going back to our workplace (we can work from home but not easily or particularly effectively) once the Government ends the restrictions on waiting from home, or back to our hobby in real life instead of on Zoom (the hobby is controlled by a central board who are following the WFH advice until it is lifted) are met with cries of ‘No! We can’t do that! It’s dangerous!’ and it anyone points out that, thankfully, it looks like the vaccination programme is working and Omicron is less severe, they come back with ‘but what if there’s a more lethal strain that appears and kills millions?’

My workplace has one element which has legally got to be done in person. I have had emails today from managers begging us to cancel said work thing and do it online. We cannot do it on line lawfully (it’s along the lines of witnessing signatures). We have told them no, we must go into the building for an hour to fulfil this function. They are saying that that is breaking the working from home directive, that it’s unsafe, and what if a deadly variant is discovered? Then we’d have to find a way around the law.

AIBU that some people are actively hoping that the situation worsens and we are locked back down? Why would anyone want this to happen?

Wreath21 it makes no difference either way to those of us who can't work from home whether other people can though.

I like my job - it's not drudging, its really varied with lots of autonomy and a chance to make a difference, and its paid okay. I wouldn't swap it for an office job in a million years (this option actually came up recently). My job absolutely cannot be done from home though.

I'd still prefer other people who can work from home do so.

I'm confused about why you think office workers wfh in any way harms those who can't do so. Its better for us too - less traffic on the road, public transport less busy, less pollution. Why would you want to force office workers back to commuting?

I think it is some people are more worried / precautions than others rather than enjoying it. Personally, I am not a fan of the 'what ifs' because we can't go on living in fear forever. I am enjoying being in the workplace and being able to see friends again.

If WFH suits some people that's fair enough, but too many of them go on about it as though it's a superior option (which seems to tie in with the suburban-smuggo mindset that office work is superior to service work and that people who work in food production, distribution of goods, or cleaning, should 'get a better job' if they complain about their low pay.)

There is definitely something dangerous and unhealthy about the idea that everyone should narrow their lives down indefinitely, with 'going to your essential work' being about the only morally acceptable reason to leave your cage.

Some beautiful sweeping statements here 🤦🏼‍♀️

There is definitely something dangerous and unhealthy about the idea that everyone should narrow their lives down indefinitely, with 'going to your essential work' being about the only morally acceptable reason to leave your cage.

Good job that's not a view anyone is pushing then, isn't it? Except you so it gives you something to aim your resentment at.

There is a movement towards living a more sustainable life, which does involve discussions over things like commuting, consumption etc. Maybe that's really your problem?

Yanbu

Whoops pressed send too soon

YANBU - for some sad individuals this whole pandemic has been the most exciting thing to ever happen in their tiny, boring lives

@Wreath21

The PP who talked about the meddling funsponges having had a great pandemic was absolutely right. There have always been a set of people who are obsessed with disapproving of and denouncing others; they think that a virtuous life is one that is as restricted as possible (we've had decades of drivel about how 'maturity' consists of hard work and domesticity rather than exploring, travelling, having as much fun as you can). Now these people have been energised to bully everyone else and compete with each other in martyrdom.

The WFH enthusiasts also tend to be the sort of people whose jobs are as comfortable as their home lives - not only have they enough room to designate a workspace, but they also don't have the sort of managers who install keyloggers on their computers and demand they register their pee breaks. Some people's WFH experiences have been horrible, too - sitting on your bed with a laptop on your knee because your flatmates have already commandeered the kitchen for their own laptop-bashing day, family members constantly disrupting your work (particularly if you live with an abusive man who thinks your little job doesn't matter and now you're not going out the housework has to be done perfectly).

What should have happened was a proper look at how we arrange 'work' and reward it. What we're going to get is further class division: low-paid service workers will have to keep on drudging and be scolded if they even think of participating in any leisure activity.

@thepeopleversuswork

You're both missing the point that now WFH has happened a sizable majority were not happy with the office lifestyle.
The boundaries and authority over people's lives swung too far in favor of 'Work'. 9-5. but it's not, is it, it was 6-7, emails, calls, weekends, social life, even sticking its business nose into family life.
Work was with good intentions offering gym memberships, vouchers for use in other chains, all incentives to control the employee, cement loyalty, improve performance.
People have grabbed back a sense of control.

It's like Mrs. Hr said, she doesn't want to listen to endless conservations about someone's husband, delivery drivers, tradesmen, who so and so shagged, hates, restaurant, my kids had a tummy ache, or complaints about colleagues or sales manager trying it on with every woman in the dept even though he's married, on and on and on.

Friendships take yrs of cultivation, I understand making the workplace 'Happy', with a view to collaboration and cooperation. I believe for most people the day starts at 9 and finishes at 5.
I think claiming it's an introvert's issue is without merit and somewhat of a red herring. Certainly from our point of view, our personal goals are none of her employees' business, our social calendar is packed out with varied social events non of which will include colleagues.

This argument is all about power, and some will have to go create a life outside of work.
Prime dissertation material.

The boundaries and authority over people's lives swung too far in favor of 'Work'.

And for some of us, having our homes become our workplaces has swung that even further towards ‘Work’. Ditto the 9-5 thing - lovely if you find that WFH means a harder stop at the end of the workday, but for others, living in the same house as our work laptops means the work day bleeding more and more into the home one.

I do think you are missing the point about in-work socialising somewhat. WFH is lonely and isolating for many people, not because they have no friends outside work or because they deeply care who shagged who in the office, but because sitting alone for 8+ hours a day with no human contact is lonely and isolating.

Again, I appreciate WFH works brilliantly for some people, and I hope they get to do it and that more organisations allow it where practical. I just wish people would honestly say “I really like this and I want to keep doing it so I’ll look for jobs that allow it”, rather than this passive kind of “WFH is so brilliant for employees in general, all organisations should move towards a WFH-by-default model, then I won’t ever have to admit wanting the things I want because they suit me or taking action to find them for myself.” I have a number of colleagues who fall into that category and they are pretty annoying.

The 'I'm a keyworker/ NHS here stiff is tedious. I have loved working from home and hope to do so forever.

@Hrpuffnstuff1

I think you're misunderstanding my point: I'm absolutely not against WFH, in fact I'm a massive advocate of it. I totally agree that its great to claw back a lot of the personal control from work and for people to make their lives work better.

What I'm bothered by is something related but different, which is this slow creep of misanthropy under the cloak of introvertism and which COVID seems to have unleashed in huge volumes.

"I hate people"/"I would be quite happy never coming into contact with another person apart from my husband ever again"/"Why should I smile at people they're all out to get me"/"I'd rather run a mile than spend time with any of my colleagues". This type of thing. You see literally hundreds of such comments a week on MN.

Whenever this is challenged someone will tip up to tell you they were bullied and find social situations very difficult etc. Or they will say that the world is designed for extroverts and its about time the boot was on the other foot. I have a great deal of sympathy with this but I simply can't accept that allowing our society to completely atomise is a good solution.

If large numbers of people are so disillusioned with society and the way it works that they prefer not to have any contact with another human being for weeks on end and they assume that all others are out to get them, this goes way beyond just being an "introvert" or "preferring my own company". I'm very happy to be respectful of people's boundaries and to allow them to work in a way that suits the. But this isn't what this is about. This is a kind of militant pathology. And its not good for us as a society to indulge this.

We need to give some serious thought to why this has happened.

Agreed. TBH I think it is something that suits the ruling classes and always has done - if the lower orders talk to one another they might get ideas above their station... or at least find out that those around them are not just 'benefit cheats' or 'immigrants' or 'freaks' but human beings just like them. Divide and rule works best when you prevent people finding out that the folk devils they are being told to hate are either non-existent or just not that bad.
Frighten people with semi-imaginary enemies and they will not only all hide, but they will stop paying attention to what the ruling classes are actually doing to all of us.

(Interestingly but somewhat OT: this may be why Mumsnet itself attracted so much hostility, waaaaay before the great trans panic... it didn't suit the patriarchy to have women talking to each other without men there to moderate the conversation).

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@Hrpuffnstuff1

I think you're misunderstanding my point: I'm absolutely not against WFH, in fact I'm a massive advocate of it. I totally agree that its great to claw back a lot of the personal control from work and for people to make their lives work better.

What I'm bothered by is something related but different, which is this slow creep of misanthropy under the cloak of introvertism and which COVID seems to have unleashed in huge volumes.

"I hate people"/"I would be quite happy never coming into contact with another person apart from my husband ever again"/"Why should I smile at people they're all out to get me"/"I'd rather run a mile than spend time with any of my colleagues". This type of thing. You see literally hundreds of such comments a week on MN.

Whenever this is challenged someone will tip up to tell you they were bullied and find social situations very difficult etc. Or they will say that the world is designed for extroverts and its about time the boot was on the other foot. I have a great deal of sympathy with this but I simply can't accept that allowing our society to completely atomise is a good solution.

If large numbers of people are so disillusioned with society and the way it works that they prefer not to have any contact with another human being for weeks on end and they assume that all others are out to get them, this goes way beyond just being an "introvert" or "preferring my own company". I'm very happy to be respectful of people's boundaries and to allow them to work in a way that suits the. But this isn't what this is about. This is a kind of militant pathology. And its not good for us as a society to indulge this.

We need to give some serious thought to why this has happened.[/quote]
I think your points are a broader argument on the effects of the pandemic. I certainly see my parents becoming more insular, I've heard comments from friends which imply they are actually concerned by what's happened. People have certainly changed behaviour and become more fearful, they've shrunk there interactions.

Although the WFH argument is groups of people taking back time and reassigning those hrs.
Mrs HR for instance didn't previously WFH, now she set up she's happy with hybrid. With our personal plans she did intend to leave and become a business owner. This idea is in the balance now because of her employers flexibility.

Although ultimately to fulfill our life goals a business would give us the best chance of a successful outcome.
I think WFH has made opportunities available that people previously felt impossible. Hundreds of people have left her employers a global company to seek a different work life balance.

I can't see how the government could possibly mandate WFH permanently. Lots of jobs can't be done that way, lots may be but frankly aren't a well done at home, and then there are some that could be but only with the right employee. And the lines are not hard around any of these.

While there are some really great things about WFH, there are also intangibles that will become more clear as time goes on. My DH is a scientist, and he's largely been able to transfer most of his work to home, essentially setting up a partial lab here. Luckily our house is an old rectory so has the right kinds of spaces - if we were in the city it would have been impossible.

But what has become more and more noticeable are the problems with new trainees and students. They really do need mentors to supervise them, they need a workplace culture, they need other people to talk to about work. Right now they are mainly getting on alone as best they can at home in apartments, and it's not great.

I similarly had a job that was new to me, WFH because of the pandemic. And it was compromised because of the online element, but apart from that, as a new employee there were a number of real problems it raised. I was pretty experienced in the general area, so it would have been even worse for someone younger.

That's something that is likely to affect a lot of workplaces if they try WFH long term.

@MammaMacgill87

I disagree to an extent, in human history we were tribal/communal creatures our interactions extended to our own tribe/clan beyond that it was literally ONLY our extroverted leadership that had any need to interact with strangers I feel like this is (albeit a dramatic example) a return to that dynamic. Generally it isn't exactly in human nature to be extroverted and enjoy interaction with anyone and everyone. I'd go as far as to say a huge majority of people don't actually enjoy mass socialisation or interaction but we are educated to act like we do because otherwise you'll be a social outcast (the horror), granted we do need to find a balance but it's not at all shocking that the majority of people enjoy their own company and those of them close.

This is true, but it's worth considering that tribal warfare was common under these conditions, and complex social infrastructure was not.

@Goldenbear

I'm not sure but I'm going to try and persuade my boss that it can be a hybrid. I don't know how he could argue that it can't be really. My only concern is that he may not want to allow it for the sake of organisational politics.

This can be an issue.

What do you do, as an employer, when you have one employee who does well working from home, while you know another is under-performing? If you just tell the latter that he can't, while the other guy is allowed, there can be repercussions, especially in public sector type situations.

Hybrid working can be great for people l, enabling a work/life balance. However some people get a lot of reward from getting out to work, particularly if home is not that conducive for wfh. However, it exacerbate inequalities unless it is genuinely a choice.

@nocoolnamesleft

YABU. Recognising that we are still in a pandemic is not the same as wanting the fucking thing to continue.

And all the people that have to into work? Funny how COVID only affects those able to work from home

@thepeopleversuswork, that's a really good post.

I've absolutely noticed more insularity, more polarisation over the last few years. To me, it started with Brexit (although I'm sure the seeds were sown before that) and continued into general politics, other issues like gender, and then on into every day life.

I've seen those around me - rational, intelligent people whom I've known for years, mostly fairly liberal Guardian-reading types (for thus is my general social circle ) - suddenly start down the road of anyone who has a different opinion to them being 'a monster', 'Gammon', 'literally evil'. There almost seems to be a 'You're with me or you're against me' mentality which means if your views don't exactly align, you're out. There is no tolerance of a different view or even someone who can see both sides of an argument.

Covid has given that a shot of steroids. We all shut ourselves away, whether voluntarily or just because we weren't allowed to see colleagues/socialise and not only did it make everyone's worlds smaller but it seemed to make some people even less tolerant. I've lost friends because we had different views about the pandemic - not that anyone's been a denier but a close friend didn't seem to be able to bear anyone trying to have any semblance of a normal life even within the rules, or criticising the restrictions. I have no idea why, she virtually cut me off months ago.

I suspect it's fear that underpins it the intolerance but - obvious Covid issues aside - I just don't understand why.

@BrightYellowDaffodil

Leaving aside Brexit and that broader polarisation (I agree on this it just seems to big to get my hands around)...

I think this militant introvertism is a backlash against decades of neoliberalism and people being forced to comply with a cookie-cutter corporate friendly identity. Modern corporate workplaces are not terribly tolerant of difference or of people whose faces don't fit or who don't "join in". People are forced to compete with one another to get ahead and the smiliest, shiniest, most extrovert people tend to come out best in those situations eve if they don't deserve it.

I can totally understand people who muddled through this for a long time, hating it but forcing themselves to comply, feeling "fuck you this is my moment, I'm stepping off this horrendous treadmill of Type A, Always On, smiliness". I totally get that.

But I think some people are taking this to very extreme lengths. We should be able to find our own path within modern life without having to literally barricade everyone except our immediate family out and see everyone as the enemy.

I wonder if it’s self-perpetuating after a point, thepeopleversuswork. The more you shut yourself off from interacting with others, the more you lose the skills to do it - and I don’t just mean social skills but the internal processing of dealing with another person with their own approach and views and interests. And the harder that gets, the more tempting it becomes to view needing to do it as some unfair imposition being placed on you when you’re just trying to go about your day.

[quote BrightYellowDaffodil]@thepeopleversuswork, that's a really good post.

I've absolutely noticed more insularity, more polarisation over the last few years. To me, it started with Brexit (although I'm sure the seeds were sown before that) and continued into general politics, other issues like gender, and then on into every day life.

I've seen those around me - rational, intelligent people whom I've known for years, mostly fairly liberal Guardian-reading types (for thus is my general social circle ) - suddenly start down the road of anyone who has a different opinion to them being 'a monster', 'Gammon', 'literally evil'. There almost seems to be a 'You're with me or you're against me' mentality which means if your views don't exactly align, you're out. There is no tolerance of a different view or even someone who can see both sides of an argument.

Covid has given that a shot of steroids. We all shut ourselves away, whether voluntarily or just because we weren't allowed to see colleagues/socialise and not only did it make everyone's worlds smaller but it seemed to make some people even less tolerant. I've lost friends because we had different views about the pandemic - not that anyone's been a denier but a close friend didn't seem to be able to bear anyone trying to have any semblance of a normal life even within the rules, or criticising the restrictions. I have no idea why, she virtually cut me off months ago.

I suspect it's fear that underpins it the intolerance but - obvious Covid issues aside - I just don't understand why.[/quote]
I totally agree with this.

@GoldenOmber

I wonder if it’s self-perpetuating after a point, thepeopleversuswork. The more you shut yourself off from interacting with others, the more you lose the skills to do it - and I don’t just mean social skills but the internal processing of dealing with another person with their own approach and views and interests. And the harder that gets, the more tempting it becomes to view needing to do it as some unfair imposition being placed on you when you’re just trying to go about your day.

Quite possibly yes.

But the thing is while I'm absolutely sympathetic to people who find themselves in this situation we shouldn't be perpetuating it by telling people its normal and OK. It's really not.

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@BrightYellowDaffodil

Leaving aside Brexit and that broader polarisation (I agree on this it just seems to big to get my hands around)...

I think this militant introvertism is a backlash against decades of neoliberalism and people being forced to comply with a cookie-cutter corporate friendly identity. Modern corporate workplaces are not terribly tolerant of difference or of people whose faces don't fit or who don't "join in". People are forced to compete with one another to get ahead and the smiliest, shiniest, most extrovert people tend to come out best in those situations eve if they don't deserve it.

I can totally understand people who muddled through this for a long time, hating it but forcing themselves to comply, feeling "fuck you this is my moment, I'm stepping off this horrendous treadmill of Type A, Always On, smiliness". I totally get that.

But I think some people are taking this to very extreme lengths. We should be able to find our own path within modern life without having to literally barricade everyone except our immediate family out and see everyone as the enemy.[/quote]
I agree with this completely. My DH is about as introverted as you can get and struggles with social anxiety. For him, wfh is great. I’m the opposite though, I’m much healthier and happier when I have interaction with other people and am not at home all day. DH wouldn’t dream of suggesting that wfh permanently would be ok for me because he knows it wouldn’t.

We’re quite lucky in that respect, as we can see both sides. I have friends who have loved wfh and have argued (some successfully) to do it permanently and some who have changed jobs to something remote. If we can use all this experience to be more accommodating to both sides and everyone in between then great, but the folk fighting for life to now take place on Zoom need to realise that their normal/desirable would be properly harmful for many, many others.

I admit, i loved socially distant queuing. I hate crowds. I still look nostalgically at the worn stickers on shop floors