Men's strategic incompetence - AIBU to say it's not just at home?

[Triffid1]

So often on threads I see women who are frustrated at their DPs because they can't do the simplest things at home (I am, obviously, 100% in their camp and agree it's ridiculous) but there's often comments about how it's especially irritating because all these men are supposedly competent at work.

Except, in my experience, soooooo many men are equally strategically incompetent at work and it has zero negative impact on them. AIBU to say this issue is far wider than just not being able to "remember" DC lunchboxes?

I can think of 100 examples without even trying:

The men who could never ever organise their own travel arrangements. So somehow always got someone else to do it. Ditto booking restaurants, arranging meetings etc.

The boss who refused to learn the basics of computer work so that all the junior (women only, natch) who worked for him had to spend time helping him constantly to set up a printer/ print out an email etc.

No man in the history of my working career (25+ years) has organised the leaving/ birthday/wedding/maternity card/gift. Not even the junior ones.

I currently employ freelancers. It is ALWAYS the men who need me to hand hold, "Can you please tell me what the deadline is [because I can't be bothered to click on the link you provided that has all the details]" or "Oh, I don't always see my emails so can you send me a text message if you need something".

At work, skipping all this just allows them more time to network and dazzle with their "brilliance" or to have an easier time of it. Why on earth would they be any different at home?

@Bytheseaseasea

Ugh yeah my boss is super strategically incompetent. He kept asking that I emailed documents to him, which were saved on our network and I had told him where they were saved multiple times. When he asks I just send him the links to the network. He can’t be bothered to log onto it so he asks someone else for the document or just doesn’t do the work and says he can’t find what he needs! I think he’s being performance managed… 🤞

I don't understand this, He is your Boss and is asking for You to do something a certain way but because YOU don't want to You are being awkward. It makes You look bad not him IMO. It doesn't matter how many multiple times you tell him where it is saved he has asked for it sent directly to his email and as your boss surely he can ask for it that way if thats how he wants it.

I'm a freelancer, and I've decided just to work with women going forward. I can no longer tolerate the "you should have read my mind" attitude when things to wrong, deflecting to avoid blame, making decisions and not keeping people informed and the sneering desire to catch you out at every opportunity.

During 2021 when we were planning going back to the office my line manager asked for 'someone' to fill in a rota so we knew who was in.
We all agreed it was a great idea - then I baggsied it wasn't either of us two women to do it. The menfolk were quite taken aback.
I've also taken to pointing out that you don't need ovaries to organise a collection.

They think I'm a right stroppy mare - but the junior woman in our office is lovely and will do nice things to be kind and I can see her taking on all the wifework and wondering why she's so stressed.

It sounds as if there are real recruitment issues at these workplaces. At my place you'd be shown the door if you couldn't print a document or set up a meeting.

I have worked with a significant number of contractors and they've all gone above and beyond, as they know they could be let go of immediately. Who are these companies you're working for who attract so many lazy contractors?

I wouldn't expect anyone in a junior position to organise a leaving gift. Usually its the most outgoing person who does this - male or female. I accept that there are more "our going" female personalities in the workplace than male.

I would expect a PA to sort expenses as that's literally their job.

We can all sit and point at incompetent colleagues. You know one man 20 years ago who didn't do his own expenses? I know a woman would sit at their desk and order their grocery shopping. But I don't judge everyone by her example.

@ZeroFuchsGiven that’s not really how our organisation works. We have been instructed to use the network for all saved documents so we ensure good version control. This is applicable for every employee, even the lazy ones.

@ZeroFuchsGiven

Yay another man bashing thread.

How about men stop being so useless then?

@ManAlive24

I'm a freelancer, and I've decided just to work with women going forward. I can no longer tolerate the "you should have read my mind" attitude when things to wrong, deflecting to avoid blame, making decisions and not keeping people informed and the sneering desire to catch you out at every opportunity.

I was a freelancer until recently - I have very definitely experienced exactly this from both sexes - and I'm getting it from a female colleague now I've gone permie too.

The men I know are not useless though so I can not relate to this at all.

I probably know way more useless women than men tbh.

I don't know whether it's cause or effect, but I agree. Also work in a profession not known for being particularly forward thinking - you can probably guess by the username.

Except, in my experience, soooooo many men are equally strategically incompetent at work and it has zero negative impact on them.

Not sure what industry you work in but in my profession (engineering oil and gas) you will not last very long if you are 'incompetent'. My colleagues and I are all chartered which takes fair degree of competence to achieve, all interviews require a technical section where you have to demonstrate your working knowledge, once on a project there are all sorts of checks and balances to prevent errors being carried for any length of time. If repeated errors are traced to an individual they would be given a formal warning before being removed from that role. Nobody wants to work with someone who's output you don't trust.

In my experience, anyone in the workplace who has achieved a certain level of seniority does this to an extent whether male or female

This. Its not just men.

Baffles me how we ever got to the moon ...

Have you seen the movie Hidden figures?

I have experienced this a lot as well. One man I worked with would pretend he couldn’t work the coffee machine and would hopefully raise his cup whenever a woman (never a man) would walk in the direction of the kitchen. I had a boss that used to affect flapping histrionics whenever he needed to book personal travel or restaurants or the like, and he would be so loud and alarming to watch that his PA, or indeed anyone else in his immediate vicinity would dash over to take the task on. He’s obviously then be entirely cured of his stress and would wander off to do something else ineffectually.

And yes, yes, to those who feel compelled to defend the poor oppressed men, obviously not all men are like it (🙄) but I’ve yet to experience - in my field of work - a woman who utilised ‘strategic incompetence’ to avoid doing anything. Women are much more likely to overburden themselves just to try to get some recognition in their field. Still. In 20-fucking-22.

@DillonPanthersTexas

Except, in my experience, soooooo many men are equally strategically incompetent at work and it has zero negative impact on them.

Not sure what industry you work in but in my profession (engineering oil and gas) you will not last very long if you are 'incompetent'. My colleagues and I are all chartered which takes fair degree of competence to achieve, all interviews require a technical section where you have to demonstrate your working knowledge, once on a project there are all sorts of checks and balances to prevent errors being carried for any length of time. If repeated errors are traced to an individual they would be given a formal warning before being removed from that role. Nobody wants to work with someone who's output you don't trust.

We aren’t talking about the incompetence that leads to the collapse of an oil platform. This is about strategic incompetence: booking a room, downloading documents, uploading documents, installing a printer, using a photocopier, organising a leaving present. It’s about expecting to be looked after (and succeeding).

it is NOT a good use of my time to do someone else's document formatting if that is not my job. Ever. These are basic skills in today's office place

Hmm so why do we have PAs and paralegals (some of the paralegals are male, the PAs are female, to be fair) in my workplace who do that sort of thing and let the lawyers get on with lawyering?

I would expect a PA to sort expenses as that's literally their job

I remember saying years ago that I couldn't believe how user-unfriendly our expenses system was and said "it's hardly a good use of my time on my salary".

Finance lady said "well the expectation is that you do your expenses in your own time". I mean, really? Not the point of the thread but I don't think so! Thank goodness I hardly ever incur them now but I can offload them to a female PA when I do (about once a year).

Hmm so why do we have PAs and paralegals (some of the paralegals are male, the PAs are female, to be fair) in my workplace who do that sort of thing and let the lawyers get on with lawyering?

I think this is an important point- if you charge your time to a client, you need to be careful about delegating appropriately. When I was in private practice my clients paid up to £650 an hour for my time (and this isn't especially high for a City lawyer)- they would be pretty annoyed to be charged that much for me to spend an hour making travel arrangements or doing basic word processing, and quite rightly.

Eh men and women can be equally useless. If your partner is useless at home, then despite what he tells you, he's also a moron at work too. Probably a good way of weeding them out when dating, if they complain about their work colleagues a lot then likely they are useless.

Someone at my job is useless. I feel so sorry for his partner. I bet he uses all kinds of excuses work related to get out of helping, and yet he is supported by his team constantly because he's that bad.

Interesting theory op!

I am torn on this I am overseeing two groups of (entirely male) builders ATM.

While I am in awe of their skills and strength and bravery (on roof) and their endurance, I am also bewildered by the lack of communication, the appalling scheduling, the inability to plan, the inability to see things from a client's pov, and the occasional cack-handedness & carelessness (leaving important doors unlocked, drilling holes in water pipes, not bothering with important details, taking ages to finish a job etc etc). It's so frustrating! I can't help thinking that a team of women builders would aim higher to start with!

[quote ThinkAboutItTomorrow]**@QueBarbaridad* on 'irritating stuff like birthday cards'* I actually wonder the opposite - I suspect the value of this sort of thing will be recognised more and more. In a zoom meeting, hybrid world where it's harder to get and keep good staff, leaders are much more interested in the things that drive strong culture and employee engagement. I think little gestures like birthday cards can cumulatively make a big difference. Obviously not instead of good basics like salary, purpose, recognition, support and promotion opportunities but as the difference between somewhere people are happy with vs really go all out for, I think it's important. [/quote]
I suppose it depends how much of an outlier I am. I’m happiest in teams where you don’t even give each other Christmas cards. I have experienced the misery of being left off someone’s list and seen the same hurt in others.
I don’t think little gestures like birthday cards make any difference at all if they are supposedly a team effort. Real gestures that cost the company - or the boss - money not the whole team are needed: meals out, long service awards of real value; Christmas presents actually from the boss downwards not bloody secret Santa.
I’m sure getting and keeping good staff will always be important but I don’t follow how it’s more difficult now.

I am not sure I agree with this. Where I work everyone mucks in and gender is irrelevant.

Whenever I worked late at the office I was often the only female present. Perhaps because my children were grown so no need to get home early. Many of my male colleagues stayed late to the office but they weren’t working, they were standing around chatting, drinking coffee and generally wasting time. At 7pm they would then disappear presumably because they could arrive home safe in the knowledge that the kids would be bathed and dinner would be on the table.

@girlmom21

My male manager organised my maternity collection 🤷‍♀️

Blimey I've been working for 43 years and never known any man arrange any collection at all.

[quote ThinkAboutItTomorrow]@daimbarsatemydogsbone the research on office housework gender bias is pretty hefty:

University of Cambridge

[[https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/insight/2021/office-glamour-and-office-housework]]/

Journey of business and Psychology:

[[https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Seulki-Jang-2/publication/342257944]]OfficeeHouseworkBurnouttandPromotionnDoesGenderrMatter/links/5ef79f1b458515505078a8e3/Office-Housework-Burnout-and-Promotion-Does-Gender-Matter.pdf

University of California:

hbr.org/amp/2018/04/women-of-color-get-asked-to-do-more-office-housework-heres-how-they-can-say-no

The bias is a double whammy - women do more but don't get promoted for it (because they're expected to do it due to gender bias). When men do it everyone thinks they're amazing and it strongly predicts promotion likelihood. [/quote]
Brilliant post, really interesting links!

I have actually worked with one of these 'mythical' male boss who was quite good on the 'office housework' stuff - knew everyone's kids names, always remembered birthdays and ensured there were appropriate cards/gifts for anyone leaving or going on mat leave, organised team events, was nice and sympathetic in cases of sick leave/bereavement/personal life stresses etc. I mean it was nice and all, I could hardly complain but my god the fuss that was made over that man, you'd think he was the second coming the way he was fawned over. I was constantly told how wonderful he was, how super-lucky I was to work for him etc whereas people wouldn't really blink twice about the female bosses who were equally as hot on that stuff and arguably better technically as well .

The same boss also actually did his fair share of the child-rearing load when he and his wife had kids too - took extended paternity leave, worked compressed hours so as to be able to pick them up from nursery 2 days a week, did 50% of the emergency pick ups and sick days. Good for him, what we like to see, exactly what anyone would expect of a woman and the standard reaction to a mother doing all this would be somewhere on the spectrum from 'fair enough, bit annoying to have to pick up the extra work/have her not be contactable sometimes but that's parenthood' to 'OMG she's totally unreliable and doesn't care about work now she's got a baby sack her', but no, again, because of his XY chromosomes being an averagely responsible parent was cause for praise to the high heavens, constant talk about how wonderful he was, all the slack in the world being willing cut to facilitate this (mainly by the women in the team!) and him actually getting featured on the staff intranet as a shining example of how to make flexible working work for you when all the women had just been getting on with it for years and in many cases just accepting a career hit! I'm not suggesting anyone should have done anything differently, I'm all for encouraging men to do more but it does slightly stick in the palate a bit. Bitter, me, no?

My boss was proudly incompetent, both at home, and at work, but he'd worked bloody hard to get to the point where he was afforded that luxury - both at home and at work. I loved him, and his wife. His wife and I ended up as thick as thieves, and enjoyed treating him as the annoying but lovely man-child he was.

He'd driven other PA's literally to drink, with his travel, his lunches, his cronies and all the rest of it. Compared to my Dad, managing him was a doddle.

My DH, on the other hand, is the one who is aces and skillets at organising travel, holidays, meals, doing whip rounds, and all the rest of it. The only thing that drives him nuts is that nobody else, apparently, is capable of cleaning the coffee machine at work.